Amtrak to Long Island: MTA agrees to explore

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 04, 2024 9:39 am Why has there not been one word about the need for catenary, within either the discussion or the propagandist's releases, on the LIRR where these proposed Amtrak services would operate?

Or maybe when the Airo equipment starts to be accepted during the next decade there will be enough "Tesla B units" around to handle such.

Now so far as the "manning" issues noted in the 2019 vintage discussion. I think the precedent has been clear since the assumption of Train and Engine employees was completed on all roads during the 80's. So long as there are Brothers and Sisters in the cab and lifting tickets in the coaches, i.e. Amtrak employees covered by Agreement, and they are Rules Qualified, such issues are laid to rest.

To close on a historical note, I guess there were still PRR DD-1's (third rail) in service during 1942 (uh, I was not quite ready to be trackside to observe; oh and whoops, I lived in Pittsburgh - actually Sewickley - through The War) to handle this train over LIRR electrified territory and through Penn to Manhattan Transfer (or just to Penn if Transfer was history).

The new Airo sets are planing to include an auxiliary power car to handle catenary pickup. The dual mode chargers will have third rail shoes and that covers what you need for LIRR service.

edflyerssn007 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 20, 2024 2:04 pm The new Airo sets are planing to include an auxiliary power car to handle catenary pickup. The dual mode chargers will have third rail shoes and that covers what you need for LIRR service.

Lest we forget, Mr. Flyers, Third Rail shoes come in two varietals; LIRR over, NYC under.

Why would they have to add third rail shoes to run Amtrak's new Airo trainsets on LIRR?
Could Amtrak not run on catenary power until they left the catenary then run on diesels further east into Long Island?
Just like everywhere else, except Empire trains heading north towards Albany, where they use batteries under Manhattan.
I believe using third rail shoes are entirely unnecessary!

Since Amtrak's existing 3rd rail equipment operates in LIRR territory (i.e. Penn Station), I'd assume Amtrak could extend Empire services into Long Island basically as soon as crews can be trained or do they need to put some extra cab signaling equipment in their trains to operate in LIRR territory?

BTW, unless Amtrak is going to eliminate the LSL out of NYC, I don't see Amtrak not retaining locomotives capable of third rail running.

A couple things:

I believe that the Empire Connection tunnel is equipped with both third rail and catenary (should a catenary capable engine need to perform a rescue). It's possible the Charger variants that are being produced may have battery power, but I know they'll definitely be LIRR third rail capable.

Nit: Penn Station is not LIRR territory, it's an Amtrak station LIRR uses as their primary terminal.

Regarding signals, yeah, they probably have different aspects than LIRR.

The issue is they're talking about a couple of trains from the NEC, not Empire, although that may be in play as well.

Sorry, should have been clearer: I meant LIRR territory as far as third rail shoe configuration is concerned, not in terms of ownership.

RandallW wrote: ↑Sun Jan 21, 2024 9:29 am Sorry, should have been clearer: I meant LIRR territory as far as third rail shoe configuration is concerned, not in terms of ownership.

In a similar vein, the Empire connection doesn't have third rail, period, from what we saw earlier with the Hell's Kitchen near-collapse... and the caternary is limited in distance. I think it's diesel once past the LIRR yard and when it gets a good gasp of air.

Everyone: After reading the new proposal to extend Amtrak service to the center of Long Island - my reply is:
"Do we actually now need new Amtrak service to Mineola, Hicksville and Ronkonkoma?" - I do NOT think that
this is necessary - taking note to the increased LIRR service that has been implemented since the opening of
Grand Central (Madison) and with the (earlier) completion of the Main Line Third Track Project in the past year...

Service to Ronkonkoma is on average half-hourly about 19 hours per day - seven days per week...
Service to Mineola and Hicksville have four trains per hour during that same 19 hour period...
Service is more frequent during weekday peak periods...For LIRR current PDF timetables see:
(New schedules effective January 22 to March 3, 2024)
https://new.mta.info/agency/long-island ... timetables
*Port Jefferson Branch* and *Ronkonkoma Branch* are the two schedules serving the proposed route...

I see NO point about getting into an argument over Amtrak equipment types that are as of now multiple
years from being built let alone being tested and accepted and finally turning a wheel in revenue service...

I read the latest proposal news posted by JS and decided to look over location along with local transit to the
college campuses listed since **NONE ** will be served *DIRECTLY* by this new proposed service as written...

- SUNY Stony Brook: Stony Brook Station-Port Jefferson Branch; Suffolk Transit #51 Bus runs to both
Ronkonkoma and Patchogue LIRR via Smith Haven Mall (half hourly weekdays, hourly on weekends)
- Long Island University CW Post Campus: Served by NICE Bus N20H Route from Hicksville - Closest
LIRR stops are either Greenvale or Glen Head on the Oyster Bay Branch in terms of distance...
- SUNY Farmingdale: Farmingdale Station LIRR - About two miles to Campus. NICE route N70 Bus is
available within walking distance (Main and Conklin Streets) but runs indirectly to Campus...
- Adelphi University and Hofstra University are both served by the LIRR Hempstead Branch:
The Adelphi Campus is located between the Nassau Boulevard and Garden City Stations S of the LIRR.
- Hofstra University (Uniondale) is accessible by NICE Bus routes N70, N71 and N72 from the Rosa Parks
Bus Terminal in Hempstead - across the street from the Hempstead LIRR Station...
- SUNY Old Westbury would be closest in distance (5 miles?) to Westbury and Hicksville respectively...
There is no connecting bus service available to SUNY OW Campus...
- St. John's University Main Campus (Hillcrest, Queens) is served by three NYC Transit Bus routes:
Q46 (Union Turnpike) to Kew Gardens E/F Subway (UT/KG) -and- Q30/31 to Jamaica (LIRR Station area)
Closest LIRR Stations - Jamaica or Kew Gardens in distance...
- NYU and Columbia Universities are both in Manhattan served by NYCT Subway connections from NYP
- Fordham University is in the Bronx served by MNCR through Fordham Station and NYCT Bronx routes...

Reading all 11 pages in review of this topic was quite interesting again...I still say that the need for any
new Amtrak service is NOT there - especially if the cost is substantially more than what the LIRR already
offers for frequent (connecting) service to NYP or NYG...MACTRAXX

The only through intercity/LD service on the island was long ago, when PRR once ran through service from Pittsburgh to Montauk.

The Feds, the State, the City, and the Port Authority spent over a $Billion refurbishing the old Post Office into the new Moynihan Hall, and it is no longer a great place for making train transfers at?
Why do we waste all this money on it if we do not wish to use it?

Regarding the Empire Connection, there are images out there of the tunnel out of NYP showing third rail; used by the P-32 that work the line.
Third rail ends just north of the tunnel, hence it wasn't visible in the pics of the structural issues further north.

Unclear from the images I've seen whether or not there's catenary in the tunnel, but I have no reason to disbelieve other posters.

A couple of things, first IF the Empire Service sees a dual mode Charger within the next 5 years I would be shocked. Second third rail and catenary extend a couple hundred feet past the home signal for CP Empire which is the start of the Empire tunnel. Why we need battery cars and this extra over engineered crap is beyond me. As a GE rep once told me during a conversation while going down the river years ago if we had to do it again. No third rail just a pantograph.

There is a frequent call for through running - which actually Amtrak do the best at NYP, ironically. Possibly the Empire service could extend to Jamaica, gives a lot of connections east plus Air Train. Especially in our post-GCT Madison world where Penn service is now split.

But I don't know how critical it is. Or if there is a spare platform for it. Solution looking for a problem? I'd sooner they make Albany hourly and speed it up.

But yes, no single place on LI is really big or important enough to need trains to Philly or beyond, really.

IMO makes no sense. Why gum up LIRR with an unreliable Amtrak train to just one destination when good connections to all LIRR locations available at NYP?

A lengthy opinion piece on Amtrak to Long Island: PedestrianObservations.com

What does the author get right? Or do you disagree with the conclusion?

Intercity Trains and Long Island

Amtrak wants to extend three daily Northeast Corridor trains to Long Island. It’s a bad idea – for one, if the timetable can accommodate three daily trains, it can accommodate an hourly train – but beyond the frequency point, this is for fairly deep reasons, and it took me years of studying timetabling on the corridor to understand why. In short, the timetabling introduces too many points of failure, and meanwhile, the alternative of sending all trains that arrive in New York from Philadelphia and Washington onward to New Haven is appealing. To be clear, there are benefits to the Long Island routing, they’re just smaller than the operational costs; there’s a reason this post is notably not tagged “incompetence.”

The Northeast Corridor has asymmetric demand on its two halves. North of New York, it connects the city with Boston. But south of New York, it connects to both Philadelphia and Washington. As a result, the line can always expect to have more traffic south of New York than north of it; today, this difference is magnified by the lower average speed of the northern half, due to the slowness of the line in Connecticut. Today, many trains terminate in New York and don’t run farther north; in the last 20 years, Amtrak has also gone back and forth on whether some trains should divert north at New Haven and run to Springfield or whether such service should only be provided with shuttle trains with a timed connection. Extending service to Long Island is one way to resolve the asymmetry of demand.

Such an extension would stop at the major stattions on the LIRR Main Line. The most important is Jamaica, with a connection to JFK; then, in the suburbs, it would be interesting to stop at least at Mineola and Hicksville and probably also go as far as Ronkonkoma, the end of the line depicted on the map. Amtrak’s proposed service makes exactly these stops plus one, Deer Park between Hicksville and Ronkonkoma.
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