Wisconsin Talgos Disposition - MI and now Pacific Surfliner

Sorry - when I wonder about build quality issues, I specifically am wondering about these Wisconsin-built cars. Not even the Cascades states have gone after them in a serious way, and even taking into account that they may not need the capacity, their disinterest strikes me as odd.

The ugly, ugly cab cars wouldn't help

My understanding is that the Talgos need frequent wheel truing at a lathe due to their unique axle design. If a customer doesn't have easy access to one, that could be a very expensive addition for a short lease.

And keep them away from the PNW! 2 sets is way more than enough; we're suffering their brutal aesthetics already...

NorthWest wrote:My understanding is that the Talgos need frequent wheel truing at a lathe due to their unique axle design. If a customer doesn't have easy access to one, that could be a very expensive addition for a short lease.

And keep them away from the PNW! 2 sets is way more than enough; we're suffering their brutal aesthetics already...

Yeah, they need to a wheel truing, but thats apart of the regular train maintenance that occurs; Talgo cars are apart of some of the best maintained equipment in the Amtrak system.

And I think they look great....

there isn't enough seating capacity for the LAX-SAN run

Suburban Station wrote:there isn't enough seating capacity for the LAX-SAN run

What are the seating capacities?
Wisconsin Talgo set = 397
Surfliner set (1 Business 68xxx, 1 Cafe 63xxx, 3 Coaches 64xxx, 1 BaggageCab 69xxx cars) = 77 + 72 + 90 + 90 + 90 + 78 = 497
Sources:
https://wisarp.files.wordpress.com/2012 ... -facts.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Surfliner" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://on-track-on-line.com/amtk-roster ... #Surfliner" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So a Wisconsin Talgo set is 100 seats short of a typical Surfliner set, basically one 90 seat car less.
FYI, the typical Horizon car Surfliner set (1 Business-cafe 58xxx, 5 coaches 54xxx) = 14 + 68 + 68 + 68 + 68 + 68 = 354
A Wisconsin Talgo set has 43 more seats than the Horizon Surfliner set.

Does the Horizon set run to San Diego?

bretton88 wrote: It sure sounds like California started figuring out the cost of running the Talgos and might be backing out of the deal to lease them.

The major stumpling block leasing Talgo rolling stock is Talgo's maintenance requirements, their instance to maintain the setsand its contract. Washington State (Cascades) contracts with Talgo to maintain them, and with Amtrak to operate them. They only have Talgo trains to maintain, so there is only one maintenance contract.
Other entities, for example LOSSAN, run and maintain other rolling stock, i.e. Surfliners, that have maintenance contracts already. It's an additional expense to contract with Talgo to maintain just Talgo trains. To make it worthwhile, they will probably have to lease more than just two train sets, or just run Talgo trains only. Which would have been the case in Wisconsin.
I'm surprised California didn't buy many of the circus train cars up cheap, but I guess they didn't want to pursue more temporary solutions to their capacity issues with older used cars. The Talgo sets would be another temporary solution, but at least they are brand new.

electricron wrote:

Suburban Station wrote:there isn't enough seating capacity for the LAX-SAN run

What are the seating capacities?
Wisconsin Talgo set = 397
Surfliner set (1 Business 68xxx, 1 Cafe 63xxx, 3 Coaches 64xxx, 1 BaggageCab 69xxx cars) = 77 + 72 + 90 + 90 + 90 + 78 = 497
Sources:
https://wisarp.files.wordpress.com/2012 ... -facts.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Surfliner" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://on-track-on-line.com/amtk-roster ... #Surfliner" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So a Wisconsin Talgo set is 100 seats short of a typical Surfliner set, basically one 90 seat car less.
FYI, the typical Horizon car Surfliner set (1 Business-cafe 58xxx, 5 coaches 54xxx) = 14 + 68 + 68 + 68 + 68 + 68 = 354
A Wisconsin Talgo set has 43 more seats than the Horizon Surfliner set.

Does the Horizon set run to San Diego?

was my understanding they are running with 550 seats today though the conductor also said the talgo sets had around 300 seat so perhaps he was mistaken about both (or I misunderstood what he was saying,the train was SRO). he was saying they are trying to only have the talgo set north of LA due to seating capacity constraints but perhaps its the need to get it back home to talgo every night for maintenance reasons.

Suburban Station wrote: was my understanding they are running with 550 seats today though the conductor also said the talgo sets had around 300 seat so perhaps he was mistaken about both. he was saying they are trying to only use the talgo set north of LA due to seating capacity constraints but perhaps its the need to get it back home to talgo every night.

Let's do some math:
550 - 497 = 53 seats...
550 / 90 > 6, using the highest seating capacity cars.
90 x 7 = 630, far more than 550 by 80 seats.
Whatever Superliner cars being used and their individual seating capacity, to get to 550 seats on a train they will need to run with at least 7 cars instead of 6. Do any Surfliner trains run with 7 cars in the set? Wiki suggest not, but Wiki isn't the greatest place for accuracy.
Watching a few videos at YouTube suggests Surfliner train lengths between 6 and 12 cars. It's hard to believe any Surfliner train with 12 cars in the consist is limited to just 550 seats?

Suburban Station wrote:was my understanding they are running with 550 seats today though the conductor also said the talgo sets had around 300 seat so perhaps he was mistaken about both (or I misunderstood what he was saying,the train was SRO). he was saying they are trying to only use the talgo set north of LA due to seating capacity constraints but perhaps its the need to get it back home to talgo every night.

Mr.1617 JFK Blv, your captioned posting suggests that Talgo equipment is in revenue Surfliner service. Could you review and perfect, if necessary?

Here's a crazy idea. Use the two Talgo trains as the resurrection of the Coast Daylight. That's a curvy route. You'd have to add some type of food service and a biz class, but it's probably the best use of the sets.

Pretty sure one of the original Talgos went to California to test that very route. I think lack of funding at the time stopped it going ahead.

Tadman wrote:Here's a crazy idea. Use the two Talgo trains as the resurrection of the Coast Daylight. That's a curvy route. You'd have to add some type of food service and a biz class, but it's probably the best use of the sets.

this makes a good bit of sense IMO.
electricon-was able to confirm most are six cars but some sets are longer.

Using them as Coast Daylight trains on the tracks used by the Coast Starlight is a possibility, assuming California wished to expand this service along this route. Changing a car or two into Business Class would have to be done, and converting a coach or two into an all table car would have to be considered. If all the seats had drop down tables having an all table cars wouldn't be required.
But the Starlight schedule might have to be changed to run evenings between San Jose and Los Angeles in both directions, or it would be running at the same time as the Daylights. Additionally, I would recommend running the Daylights into San Francisco vs Oakland. Maybe Talgo could set up shop somewhere in San Francisco to maintain them, away from Amtrak's facilities in Oakland and Los Angeles - which could still be used to maintain the locomotives. As is, low platforms exist all along the route that the Talgo cars should have no problems with.
The existing Starlight schedules:
Northbound departs L.A. at 1010 AM, arrives Oakland at 9:24 PM
Southbound departs Oakland 8:35 AM at arrives L.A. at 9:00 PM (with probably a full hour of padding at L.A.)
So the Starlight requires 11.5 hours to travel between the Bay Area and L.A. using slower Superliner trains. Who knows how much time could be saved with Talgo trains? It might be possible 60 to 90 minutes could be saved? A study would be worth the time and costs to find out. But the existing Starlight schedule times would be the prime times for a future Daylight. And that's the problem I have with your suggestion, the Starlight schedule would have to be changed, and that would effect Cascades train schedule further north as well.

Nah, I don't see Amtrak substantially shifting the Starlight schedule to accommodate a Talgo Daylight. After all, Lynchburg service runs within a couple hours of the Crescent out of necessity, but both trains get ridership bumps because they serve different markets. I think a Coast Daylight could leave SFO at 7-8am and arrive LAX 3-6 pm, and not poach the Starlight's ridership because they serve different markets. (That's true of any train, Talgo or no.)

mtuandrew wrote:Nah, I don't see Amtrak substantially shifting the Starlight schedule to accommodate a Talgo Daylight. After all, Lynchburg service runs within a couple hours of the Crescent out of necessity, but both trains get ridership bumps because they serve different markets. I think a Coast Daylight could leave SFO at 7-8am and arrive LAX 3-6 pm, and not poach the Starlight's ridership because they serve different markets. (That's true of any train, Talgo or no.)

A two or three hour difference when they ran would be better than just an hour, imho.
But they can't share the same tracks at the same time, that's for sure.
Another possibility for their use would be the future Northern Lights train to Duluth from Minneapolis. They're only planning on building 500 feet long platforms at their stations, which I believe will be too short for Talgo train sets?
Per Talgo, the Wisconsin sets are ??? feet long.
Cab car 48.75 ft, normal car 43 ft, and a 14 car set , here's the math;
13 (43) + 48.75 = 607.75 feet, over 100 feet longer than the planned platforms in Minnesota.
I suppose they could take two or three cars out of each set so the trains would fit the platforms now, and add cars when needed as ridership rises, after lengthening the platforms.