Wisconsin Talgos Disposition - MI and now Pacific Surfliner

Tough call. I always think of Minneapolis as being in the center of MN but it really isn't at all of course. Duluth to Minneapolis is a rather short route for such a large trainset. Perhaps CHI-MSP really is the answer.

gokeefe wrote:Tough call. I always think of Minneapolis as being in the center of MN but it really isn't at all of course. Duluth to Minneapolis is a rather short route for such a large trainset. Perhaps CHI-MSP really is the answer.

Nope, St. Cloud or Brainerd are much closer to the center. Minneapolis is probably the population center of the state though, or near enough.

I can't recall if we've discussed either one here, but what about the Reno Fun Train or the Ski Train out of Denver?

Both are currently covered using excess Superliners in the winter.

Logical place for them is Oregon/Washington. they could use them to provide more service, or make the starlight section into a daylite train as far as Klamath Falls , swap to Starlite consist there. Or a daylite train to Sacramento.

Agreed, if they don't go to Michigan, which is quite curvy on the east end, they should go to PNW. I'd like to see more than two trains per day to Vancouver or Spokane, Vancouver especially. With the prosperity and vibrance of Seattle and Vancouver, it's criminal not to have pre-clearance and more trains per day. Although the massively slow entrance to Vancouver sucks.

Well ... at least its possible that they can still go somewhere.

While the two ex-HiawathaTalgo train sets could be used on the Cascades service, they would have to be modified because Wisconsin didn't order any business class cars, any Bristol cars, or any all table (dining) cars. Wisconsin only ordered coach cand baggage (service) cars. As is, they aren't acceptable for Cascades service.

They were built for a much shorter service, like Chicago to Milwaukee, a distance of around 100 miles or so. That's why others are looking at placing them into a route around 100 miles or so in length, like Santa Barbara to Los Angeles, Los Angeles to San Diego, Baton Rouge to New Orleans, or New Orleans to Mobile. Otherwise, some changes will be needed on a few of the cars to make these sets more acceptable for a new route.

I thought they have a cafe.

[quote="electricron"]While the two ex-HiawathaTalgo train sets could be used on the Cascades service, they would have to be modified because Wisconsin didn't order any business class cars, any Bristol cars, or any all table (dining) cars. Wisconsin only ordered coach and baggage (service) cars. As is, they aren't acceptable for Cascades service.
quote]

Wonder if it would be cheaper to just build those cars in addition and add them to The Hiawatha cars ?

I would think it would be easier and faster to remodel the few cars than build new cars to add to the set.

With specialized fixtures, maybe not easier. Besides, Mr. Norman reminds us that Talgo America seems to be able to set up shop at a moderately well-equipped shop, churn out cars, and close down within a matter of months.

Hmm - I wonder if there is an issue with build quality that is keeping potential lessors away.

mtuandrew wrote:With specialized fixtures, maybe not easier. Besides, Mr. Norman reminds us that Talgo America seems to be able to set up shop at a moderately well-equipped shop, churn out cars, and close down within a matter of months.

Hmm - I wonder if there is an issue with build quality that is keeping potential lessors away.

WSDOT has always been a little opaque as to how much exactly it costs to run these cars. The Cascades sets have a well-established reputation for reliability in-service, so I doubt at this point there's any hidden build quality or MTBF issues. It's pretty clearly by this point a quality product. But they still require a Talgo tech to ride along for each Cascades trip, and the local Talgo factory is so unusually deeply embedded with WSDOT on its service & maint contract for the Cascades sets that it's not all that clear how much above-and-beyond overhead this rolling stock is chewing up between trips.

Evidence is highly anecdotal at best, but look at how many other states were so hot to examine the Pendulars as a solution to import to other routes. Look at the AMTK fleet plan documents from the turn of the decade; the mothership seemed to be giving a tacit endorsement to Talgo being their preferred rolling stock for any routes that wanted to opt out of using Superliners. And yet without any seeming problems creeping up with the service reliability of the Cascades sets, each state's interest fell away after 2-4 years of looking and the mothership has tightened its strategic focus towards complete fleet hegemony and no longer mentions or tacitly encourages opt-outs to integrated trainsets. Nothing adequately explains that trending amongst this sample size of state DOT's and multiple AMTK administrations other than "Follow the money." What exactly is WSDOT paying Talgo to shadow them so extremely closely for use of that rolling stock? What does that onboard tech cost, and what kinds of inspection costs are being run up between revenue runs? We're way beyond the point of Not Invented Here™ skittishness when states who'll use literally anything (see: Comarrows) are saying no thanks while fully-manufactured Talgo cars sit wrapped in tarp in a warehouse for years on end. What lurks in the cost fine print that's spooking them all away upon giving a very close look?

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:

mtuandrew wrote:With specialized fixtures, maybe not easier. Besides, Mr. Norman reminds us that Talgo America seems to be able to set up shop at a moderately well-equipped shop, churn out cars, and close down within a matter of months.

Hmm - I wonder if there is an issue with build quality that is keeping potential lessors away.

WSDOT has always been a little opaque as to how much exactly it costs to run these cars. The Cascades sets have a well-established reputation for reliability in-service, so I doubt at this point there's any hidden build quality or MTBF issues. It's pretty clearly by this point a quality product. But they still require a Talgo tech to ride along for each Cascades trip, and the local Talgo factory is so unusually deeply embedded with WSDOT on its service & maint contract for the Cascades sets that it's not all that clear how much above-and-beyond overhead this rolling stock is chewing up between trips.

Evidence is highly anecdotal at best, but look at how many other states were so hot to examine the Pendulars as a solution to import to other routes. Look at the AMTK fleet plan documents from the turn of the decade; the mothership seemed to be giving a tacit endorsement to Talgo being their preferred rolling stock for any routes that wanted to opt out of using Superliners. And yet without any seeming problems creeping up with the service reliability of the Cascades sets, each state's interest fell away after 2-4 years of looking and the mothership has tightened its strategic focus towards complete fleet hegemony and no longer mentions or tacitly encourages opt-outs to integrated trainsets. Nothing adequately explains that trending amongst this sample size of state DOT's and multiple AMTK administrations other than "Follow the money." What exactly is WSDOT paying Talgo to shadow them so extremely closely for use of that rolling stock? What does that onboard tech cost, and what kinds of inspection costs are being run up between revenue runs? We're way beyond the point of Not Invented Here™ skittishness when states who'll use literally anything (see: Comarrows) are saying no thanks while fully-manufactured Talgo cars sit wrapped in tarp in a warehouse for years on end. What lurks in the cost fine print that's spooking them all away upon giving a very close look?

I dunno...I've read the financials from both Talgo America and WSDOT and I didn't see anything fishy...is there something I am missing?

electricron wrote:I would think it would be easier and faster to remodel the few cars than build new cars to add to the set.

No need to do even that. Just chop up the Wisconsin sets and use the coaches to add to the consists of the Cascades sets. The only limiting factor would be the platform lenghts at Portland, Seattle and Vancouver. I'm sure the Chargers would have no problem pushing/pulling the longer trains.

AgentSkelly wrote:

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:

mtuandrew wrote:With specialized fixtures, maybe not easier. Besides, Mr. Norman reminds us that Talgo America seems to be able to set up shop at a moderately well-equipped shop, churn out cars, and close down within a matter of months.

Hmm - I wonder if there is an issue with build quality that is keeping potential lessors away.

WSDOT has always been a little opaque as to how much exactly it costs to run these cars. The Cascades sets have a well-established reputation for reliability in-service, so I doubt at this point there's any hidden build quality or MTBF issues. It's pretty clearly by this point a quality product. But they still require a Talgo tech to ride along for each Cascades trip, and the local Talgo factory is so unusually deeply embedded with WSDOT on its service & maint contract for the Cascades sets that it's not all that clear how much above-and-beyond overhead this rolling stock is chewing up between trips.

Evidence is highly anecdotal at best, but look at how many other states were so hot to examine the Pendulars as a solution to import to other routes. Look at the AMTK fleet plan documents from the turn of the decade; the mothership seemed to be giving a tacit endorsement to Talgo being their preferred rolling stock for any routes that wanted to opt out of using Superliners. And yet without any seeming problems creeping up with the service reliability of the Cascades sets, each state's interest fell away after 2-4 years of looking and the mothership has tightened its strategic focus towards complete fleet hegemony and no longer mentions or tacitly encourages opt-outs to integrated trainsets. Nothing adequately explains that trending amongst this sample size of state DOT's and multiple AMTK administrations other than "Follow the money." What exactly is WSDOT paying Talgo to shadow them so extremely closely for use of that rolling stock? What does that onboard tech cost, and what kinds of inspection costs are being run up between revenue runs? We're way beyond the point of Not Invented Here™ skittishness when states who'll use literally anything (see: Comarrows) are saying no thanks while fully-manufactured Talgo cars sit wrapped in tarp in a warehouse for years on end. What lurks in the cost fine print that's spooking them all away upon giving a very close look?

I dunno...I've read the financials from both Talgo America and WSDOT and I didn't see anything fishy...is there something I am missing?

It sure sounds like California started figuring out the cost of running the Talgos and might be backing out of the deal to lease them.