Will there be a transit strike?

Mdlbigcat wrote:As a frustrated [and unwilling and unrepresented] Philadelphia taxpayer who lives in South Jersey, I wonder if the grand idiots in PA would have the balls to pass a law like we have in NJ, which prohibits transit workers from striking?

That assumes a no-strike law is a good thing, which it may not be.

Such a law has to provide for some form of binding arbitration in case the two sides cannot reach agreement, and since an arbitrator is typically loathe to make any significant changes in the contract, the law effectively locks in the inefficiencies of the existing contract.

I agree with Dr. Mitchell. And I'm always happy to provide a long-winded explanation, can't you tell

whovian wrote:New Jersey Transit is state owned and operated, SEPTA is not. New Jersey Transit also pays the retroactive at the conclusion of contract talks. SEPTA does not. One wonders why SEPTA plays the games they play. What if the TWU does strike. SEPTA won't be paying 5,000 workers salaries, benefits, pensions, gasoline for busses, station maintenance, electrical power for the subway, etc. I'm sure they'll take a hit in the fare box; but, then again that's not SEPTA's primary concern. When all is said and done, if the TWU stays out for 40 plus days again, the Authority will have saved in the millions, not to mention that they won't have to pay the retro upon signing a contract. New Jersey Transit also has a lot more "balls" when it comes to raising fares, which it has done recently. If you board a New Jersey Transit vehicle without paying the proper fare, or the surcharge for not having a ticket, New Jersey Transit will arrest, fine, and prosecute forwith (they even have signs on their rail fleet inside the coaches stating just that). SEPTA on the other hand does very little in the face of fare enforcement. SEPTA's conductors are not permitted to call police to remove a passenger from a train for a fare dispute, or if the passenger doesn't have the money to pay (according to their current tariff card), they are REQUIRED to issue an F-042 form (AKA the Purple form) which is basically an IOU. I'm fairly certain the city division has a similiar provision. A company that cries broke but carries people for free sends a mixed message. New Jersey Transit employees work for the State of New Jersey, SEPTA workers work for SEPTA, and that is probably why New Jersey had the "balls" to pass such a law and Pennsylvania does not. You don't see New Jersey Transit bosses running to Trenton for money every year either.

Your comment on NJT's "balls" when it comes to raising fares actually have no merit. First, NJT raised fares only twice in the last 12 or so years when SEPTA raised them about 5 times[that's "balls" on SEPTA's part]. Second, whenever NJT even made a peep about raising fares, the State Assembly would shut them up with hush money from the Transportation Trust Fund. In fact, one of the reasons the Fund is broke is that the Assembly raided the Fund [meant to pay for capital expenditures for NJT, and the roads ], to keep the NJT fares, and the tolls on the Turnpike and the Garden State Parkway artificially low. Finally, these actions were always tied in to politics. The Governor and the Assembly always wait for the lame-duck sessions to raise fares and tolls.

The last two fare increases for NJT came about because of the departures of the Governors. First, when Christie [Twitman] Whitman quit to become the EPA head, De Francesco was the one who let the increase go through. the same thing happened when Jim [McGreedy] McGreevy stepped down , and Codey got stuck with the mess.

As far as fare enforcement, NJT has brass ones in that department, however it depends on what county they do the enforcement in. On the RiverLINE, enforcement is very unevenly appplied. The Fare enforcement officers do most of their work in Burlington County, but totally ignore Camden and Mercer County stations. They feel that they get no support in Camden and Trenton, so they bust the fare evaders in Burlington County.

On the other LRT lines, I hardly see anyone on the Newark City Subway, and I see a few on the HBLR. But when you're in the hellholes of Newark and Jersey City, you learn to pick and choose your fights.

Will there be a fare increase for NJT in the future? Not now. It's an election year. It will happen when the next Governor is a lame duck.

SEPTA has 2 different policies for RR and surface ops. On buses and trolleys the policy is "Check and Request" (check to see psgr paid fare, request if they did not). If the passenger does not pay, the operator is not obliged to take any further action. Very rarely have I seen a passenger removed from a vehicle for fare evasion on buses. I know on the subway the unofficial policy is to just buzz them in so they don't have to deal with them. That's why I'm always being harassed by vagrants on subway platforms.

I did actually see a conductor throw a passenger off a train once for repeated fare evasion. Was a late night R6 at North Broad. We were 100 feet from the station when the conductor decided he had enough, hit the black button in the middle of the car and let the guy out on the tracks at the back door.

True SEPTA isn't as harsh as NJT, but I think its a policy requested by the city considering we're a liberal city with a very high poverty rate.

I wouldn't worry about fare evaders much, although there are alot. They lose the most from uncollected zone fares on the buses out of Victory (PAY LEAVE----duh! that's just asking for trouble). Don't forget most people riding mid day are seniors and they ride for free anyway.

Mdlbigcat, we finally agree on something. However, I don't recall SEPTA actually raising fare 5 times in the last 12 years, at most it was three (although they have proposed raising fares on several occasions). As far as revenue enforcement, you've given me a brief education on NJT's apparent strengths and weaknesses. I posit that SEPTA has NO strengths in that department. Any fare hikes involve some form of political hobknobbing, although in New Jersey its politicians that have the final say so, and with SEPTA its their board that signs the dotted line with (or without) some political influences. And with regards to the SEPTA conductor who threw the passenger off at North Broad, seemingly in the ballast, if that person were to write a letter to SEPTA the Authority would discipline (possibly terminate) the conductor, and write an apology to that passenger. Believe me, I've seen it happen. SEPTA conductors are not to have a passenger removed because of a fare dispute, and if the passenger is removed for any reason a police officer HAS to do it. The City of Philadelphia has little or no influence on that policy. My understanding is that SEPTA does not want to delay other riders (waiting for police assistance) for a fare.

As for a "no-strike" clause: Port Authority in Pittsburgh has a no-strike clause in their contract, with disputes to go to binding arbitration. I was in college out there and had to suffer through their last strike, a 28-day walkout in March/April of 1992. The results of that stike and subsequent no-strike clause has been mixed, for the union and riders alike (PAT drivers are represented by the ATU....same as NJT bus operators).

Forgive me Silverliner II, I think you took what I said out of context. In the quote that you cited from one of my previous posts I was referring to Walmart employees not requiring a federal license to perform their duties, not locomotive engineers. I don't mean to veer away from the topic, just wanted to clarify my previous statement. I admit that what I wrote may have seemed ambiguous. I am also aware of the federal licensing for locomotive engineers, I'm in possession of one myself.

whovian wrote:Forgive me Silverliner II, I think you took what I said out of context. In the quote that you cited from one of my previous posts I was referring to Walmart employees not requiring a federal license to perform their duties, not locomotive engineers. I don't mean to veer away from the topic, just wanted to clarify my previous statement. I admit that what I wrote may have seemed ambiguous. I am also aware of the federal licensing for locomotive engineers, I'm in possession of one myself.

No problem there, LOL! I likely did read too much into that, so I withdraw that portion of my post....if it still lets me delete it this far along!

*moments later*

Yep....it worked! LOL!

And I agree with you about SEPTA's weakness in dealing with fare evaders. I've seen NJ Transit police in action removing a passenger from a train at Rahway for that reason. If SEPTA would enforce their own fare policies, you can bet a lot less people would try to beat the system!

I'd be happy if they started with enforcing the no eating/drinking policy at subway stations and on vehicles. There's nothing like the hot wing aroma floating about a Silverliner or M4 car.

How about enforcing the no-smoking policy first, starting with RRD personnel who smoke inside railcars during their terminal time?

pennengineer wrote:How about enforcing the no-smoking policy first, starting with RRD personnel who smoke inside railcars during their terminal time?

Do you realize the untapped revenue potential there is to gain if citations were issued to people violating the no smoking policy in SEPTA concourses, subway stations, and on board vehicles? How about the no eating and drinking on board vehicles (not applicable to RRD, we'll let that stay status quo). There is a potential for quite a few thousand dollars a month there if the transit police would get with the program...

Of course, you'll have those who won't pay up and merely toss the citation in the trash. Then we take the WMATA approach, and hunt them down for arrest. If we're going to enforce the rules on SEPTA, let's get serious and word will get around!

And then I won't have to board a Route 102 trolley that smells like McDonalds and find French fries scattered all over the back end of the car...

Here's a question for those of you who were around for the last transit strike (keeping in mind I wasn't):

I live a half block from the Route 34 trolley and about a 5 block walk from the 49th St. R3 station. I know that during the strike SEPTA is planning on running a couple of extra trains on the R3. Even still, if I go to 49th Street in the morning, what are the chances that the trains will not be so full that they skip the station? Should I expect to be able to board a train (if not the first that goes by, maybe the second)?

Thanks for the advice!

It happens that I was an R3 rider during that strike. It was tough and tight, but I recall stopping at most (if not all) stations. The real problem is the trip home, where you'll be lined up in cattle chutes for (potentially) hours watching them pack your train full of people and sendin it off without you. Try to skew your hours, if you can (3-4 hours in either direction should guarantee you a space). In addition, on the trip home, try to board at Market East, even if it means a nice, long walk -- there will be fewer people on the train at that point.

Your best bet, though is to invest in a bike. It will save you a lot of hassles.

I actually plan on riding my bike most of the time, but in foul weather or when I need to be more presentable than usual at work I would prefer the option of the R3. Fortunately for me, I only work part-time during the school year so I'll be leaving work mid-day and heading to campus (Penn) for class. Then after class I can take the Penn bus home, which should allow me to avoid the mess at Suburban. I feel sorry for everyone else though...

PHILADELPHIA (AP) Oct. 18, 2005 - Another union has announced its intention to strike SEPTA, the Philadelphia area's mass transit agency.
United Transportation Union Local 1594 -- the Suburban Transit Division -- has announced its intent to strike on Halloween, on October 31st, if it doesn't have a new contract.

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?secti ... id=3546491