Will there be a transit strike?

Not to mention they pay out a ton of overtime. Most conductors and surface route operators work 55-65 hrs a week. They don't have enough conductors to give them 5 day workweeks. Maybe if they didn't get treated so bad they might be able to hold on to enough field employees to eliminate overtime.

Believe it or not, SEPTA supervisors get overtime also, or a least on the RRD side anyway. And as far as manpower goes, that is also a myth. SEPTA presently has enough qualified conductors (believe me I know), the problem is the way they deploy their manpower. To make a long story short, you'll notice you see at least 2 and a most 5 crew members to a train during daylight hours but only 1 and sometimes 2 crewmembers after PM rush has concluded. One may argue that they don't need as many train personnel after PM rush because things are slower. Try going to the Airport, Warminster, Norristown, Paoli-Thorndale, or Trenton on a reverse commute train and I think one would beg to differ.

whovian wrote:Believe it or not, SEPTA supervisors get overtime also, or a least on the RRD side anyway.

I think those are the "B-payroll" employees, who are not covered by union contracts; but are not considered supervisory, administrative, or management for legal purposes (in other words, they're not "exempt" employees for purposes of overtime pay).

The SEPTA workers union TWU Local 234 has announced a strike deadline of 12:01 AM, Monday October 31st. On their website they have set up a count-down timer accurate to the second.

http://www.twulocal234.com/

themallard wrote:http://www.twulocal234.com/

"We Move Philadelphia"

Yeah, you moved me alright, right into South Jersey, thanks to their asinine strikes!

Yeah, you moved me alright, right into South Jersey, thanks to their asinine strikes!

I'm actually on the side of the union. If you read their website, they do get a raw deal. I've talked to alot of operators, and it isn't exactly cake. Try having a family and being a fairly new operator at the same time.

They do have a point where they've given up raises to keep their benefits. Plus I'm all in favor of them keeping their benefits as they are as long as management, which does nothing, enjoys the same benefit. These guys are the front line people. They deal with the schedules they're given, the drunks, the fare evaders, the bad weather. In this country, health care should be a right---but read the website, they pay like anyone else, such as copays, prescriptions, etc. Its time for labor to take a stand, and I'm behind them 100%. If nothing else, how can you side with SEPTA management which has brought us nothing but rail service elimination (trolleys, Newtown, Quakertown, West Chester......etc.), service cutbacks, fare hikes and more.

I cannot agree more. The TWU had to draw the line somewhere, at some time. You cannot use employees benefits and wages as an excuse for why your company can't meet its bottom line. Contracts are supposed to get better, not worse, building on what ground you've gained in the last talks. Good thing SEPTA really can't outsource bus drivers. I don't think any one in their right mind would agree to the contract that SEPTA is proposing, which ultimately entails a considerable pay cut. In lieu of increasing energy costs, gasoline prices, and more overall inflation, that is simply unrealistic to expect workers to do that. Don't we live in America anymore. Aren't the middle class SUPPOSED to have jobs with GOOD benefits anymore. Isn't there SUPPOSED to be some medium for the have nots to have social mobility. If one can justify tax cuts for the affluent, or elected officials voting THEMSELVES pay raises, than surely one cannot morally justify taking away from the less affluent or the poor. But, evidentally, that is my paradise, my imagination running wild once again.

Its also a common misconception that TWU workers get a 100% free ride on health insurance. Check out their website. They had a fair plan.

I agree that the details of the healthcare plan are partly misunderstood. I doubt many people have realize that employees pay premiums for the months 4-27 of their employment. While the benefits are not as fat as depicted to the publice sometimes, they still have a great package.

Clearly, management has a better benefits packages than the rank and file. Is this surprising? At higher level positions with greater responsibility you expect greater compensation. This is true in all industries.

When was the last time SEPTA laid anyone off? Must be nice to have that kind of job security.

Contracts are supposed to get better, not worse, building on what ground you've gained in the last talks.

True, but don't you think management has the same outlook? "Let's build on the work-rules (or whatever) concessions we got last time". It is a contract between two parties, not a simple list of benefits. Like any other contractual agreement, each side will be looking to improve their position.

In lieu of increasing energy costs, gasoline prices, and more overall inflation, that is simply unrealistic to expect workers to do that.

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Under our economic system, pay is not about what is fair, it is about what the market will bear. This is a tough pill to swallow at times. As much as we might like to feel bad for SEPTA employees, look the other jobs that exist for people with similiar education/skill levels. Would you rather work for SEPTA or Walmart? I think overall, working for SEPTA is a pretty good gig considering the alternatives. The workers must agree. After all, if they didn't they wouldn't work there, would they?

Well, let me pose a question. What if the TWU conceded to SEPTA demands? What if the state implemented dedicated funding for SEPTA next year so that SEPTA doesn't have to go begging every year for a bail out? Would SEPTA then go back to the bargaining table at the next contract negotiation willing to grant TWU members terms similiar (with regards to healthcare contributions in particular) to their previous contract that existed before the budget crisis? I am fairly certain the answer is NO. Once the TWU concedes to those sorts of demands, they will NEVER get it back. Just as you will never see car fares, rail passes, and rail tickets DECREASE. I don't think you can compare the responsibilites of a bus driver, or a mechanic, or a locomotive engineer, or the electricians at SEPTA to a cashier or stockperson at Walmart. One doesn't require a commercial driver's license, or a federal license to operate a locomotive, or a skilled tradesperson to obtain employment at Walmart. I would not consider a laborer at Walmart (which is non union) a suitable comparison to most laborers at SEPTA. I understand that market forces bring a lot to bear on the state of our economy, particularly in our discussion here about Company-Union contract negotiations; but, Walmart is a FOR profit business, SEPTA is a NONprofit quasi local government entity providing PUBLIC SERVICE for the five counties in which it serves, with a board that is appointed by those counties. Forgive me if I cannot support your comparison. SEPTA hasn't laid off in over 15 years, and when the company came through that crisis, most of the personnel they laid off (of which the company had to pay to train for their postition) did not return because they found a better paying job at another transit agency, and some of those individuals I know personnally. Of course I expect SEPTA to be tough at the bargaining table; but, not unrealistic. I'm sure if Walmart employees, or many other nonunion service employee, could use a strike as a bargaining chip at a negotiation with management, they would (particularly when you compare the fortunes of the Walton family with the wages and benefits of their employees, at home and abroad). Unfortunately, Sam Walton saw to it that NONE of his stores would deal with any trade union, period. They DO NOT have the option. Workers have the right to reject an offer that they feel is unfair; unfortunately, the public suffers as the result of a transit strike. I argue that that is a side effect, and not the intention. Would America be the same if the colonists agreed to pay British taxes with no representation in Parliament. I'm not arguing the TWU should throw busses into the Delaware river, but I think you catch my drift.

I don't think you can compare the responsibilites of a bus driver, or a mechanic, or a locomotive engineer, or the electricians at SEPTA to a cashier or stockperson at Walmart.

Neither do I. But it doesn't matter. Pay has nothing to do with how hard a job is. It has to do with how hard a job is to fill. (I don't know who you mean by locomotive engineers, but I'm only talking about TWU employees. Bringing in a different union which operates under different rules will only complicate this discussion.)

You are pretty careful in the trades you mentioned. What about SEPTA casheirs? Is their job so different from a clerk at Walmart?

Walmart is a FOR profit business, SEPTA is a NONprofit quasi local government entity providing PUBLIC SERVICE for the five counties in which it serves, with a board that is appointed by those counties.

Good point. But does this mean that SEPTA employees deserve more? Nope. It just means they are in a better bargaining position...not because they are in a union but because more people would be effected by a transit strike than a Walmart strike.

I admit, at this point I'm sorry I used Walmart as an example. How about ACME workers. They're union too. I'm not trying to make this a union/non-union issue though.

In other industries, government subsidized transportation employees have been voluntarily taken pay/benefits cuts to keep their jobs. The TWU chooses to ignore this because they think SEPTA will not be allowed to "go out of business". I am inclined to agree.

My point is, rather than feeling bad for the SEPTA workers, we should spend our time feeling bad for the poor saps who don't have the luxury of working for an organization that will never be forced to turn a profit and hasn't laid anyone off in over a decade. The TWU is in a great bargaining position because of the neccessity of the service they provide. I don't feel sorry for them. Their benefits are pretty sweet.

I don't feel sorry for them. Their benefits are pretty sweet.

So they deserve it. It certainly isn't their fault that SEPTA is broke. What about Amtrak/NS/CSX employees...I don't know what kind of benefits they get. but just remember, alot of these people do make lots of sacrifices to hold those jobs. 6-8 years before you get weekends off, 4-6 years till you get a regular route/schedule, first 2-3 years being drafted for work (get called in on your day off when a veteran calls out sick), 10-12 hour work shifts. Most people think its just driving a bus, trolley or subway car. But alot more goes on, just as freight railroad workers do (except yes these guys get to go home ALMOST every night).

We all hate cranky SEPTA workers, most of them are, some smile all the time. I'm inclined to give em a little more to keep them smiling.

Most people cannot deal with the MENTAL rigors of driving an inner city bus route, in this case in Philadelphia. School children, drunks, thugs, mentally ill persons are just the half of it. Try driving through Southwest, West, and North Philadelphia during school hours, not to mention after sunset. Bus drivers have no personal protection, and it is a highly stressful occupation. Furthermore, not every one can operate a train (regional rail, subway, or lightrail). And the issue is not whether I believe that SEPTA employees "deserve more." It is an issue though if they deserve to ACCEPT LESS. Striking does provide the TWU an effective bargaining chip, especially when you consider that workers don't have any other effective recourse to fight with (and incidentally, the regional rail division has a very long and drawn out process before any of their unions can strike). And as was mentioned in an aforementioned post, most other transit employee unions have made a number of concessions for the overall greater fiscal good of their agencies. Over the years, the TWU as well as the other SEPTA unions have made several such concessions. But,how much more does one expect them to concede. I don't feel "bad" for SEPTA workers; I feel "bad" when people argue that a company like SEPTA is justified in asking laborers to make concessions that amount to a pay cut in the EMPLOYEES bottom line, particularly when SEPTA squanders tons of money both in their operating and capital budgets, and seldom answers for their follies and ineffiencies. How does one REASONABLY expect the TWU to give in so easily? And I do feel sorry for the poor "saps" (not my term of choice) that don't have the luxury of working for an organization that affords the opportunities that SEPTA does. Be that as it may, should SEPTA employees, or other employees with more or less comparable benefits be expected to sacrifice their "great benefits" and their decent wages because less fortunate workers exist? If one can answer "yes" to that query, then fair enough. In answering yes, than one must also argue that SEPTA employees should feel the same way towards their company's "rank and file" employees, who tend to do better annually salary wise and in total benefits accrued. Do we, as taxpayers and voters, demand that our congressmen and other elected officials take pay cuts to help pay the federal deficit? Absolutely not! Instead, we re-elect those officials to misspend OUR money, and tax us (middle class and lower) more when they dig too deep into the cookie jar. Sound familiar?

As a frustrated [and unwilling and unrepresented] Philadelphia taxpayer who lives in South Jersey, I wonder if the grand idiots in PA would have the balls to pass a law like we have in NJ, which prohibits transit workers from striking? NJT workers cannot strike, and that's something that should be explored on the other side of the Delaware. That should end the triennial pissing contests between SEPTA and the TWU.

From my side of the river, I do not hear about any labor trouble at NJT. maybe they keep it swept under the rug in NJ, or what?

Can anyone explain this discrepency?

Maybe Mr. Whovian can provide a long-winded rambling explaination.

New Jersey Transit is state owned and operated, SEPTA is not. New Jersey Transit also pays the retroactive at the conclusion of contract talks. SEPTA does not. One wonders why SEPTA plays the games they play. What if the TWU does strike. SEPTA won't be paying 5,000 workers salaries, benefits, pensions, gasoline for busses, station maintenance, electrical power for the subway, etc. I'm sure they'll take a hit in the fare box; but, then again that's not SEPTA's primary concern. When all is said and done, if the TWU stays out for 40 plus days again, the Authority will have saved in the millions, not to mention that they won't have to pay the retro upon signing a contract. New Jersey Transit also has a lot more "balls" when it comes to raising fares, which it has done recently. If you board a New Jersey Transit vehicle without paying the proper fare, or the surcharge for not having a ticket, New Jersey Transit will arrest, fine, and prosecute forwith (they even have signs on their rail fleet inside the coaches stating just that). SEPTA on the other hand does very little in the face of fare enforcement. SEPTA's conductors are not permitted to call police to remove a passenger from a train for a fare dispute, or if the passenger doesn't have the money to pay (according to their current tariff card), they are REQUIRED to issue an F-042 form (AKA the Purple form) which is basically an IOU. I'm fairly certain the city division has a similiar provision. A company that cries broke but carries people for free sends a mixed message. New Jersey Transit employees work for the State of New Jersey, SEPTA workers work for SEPTA, and that is probably why New Jersey had the "balls" to pass such a law and Pennsylvania does not. You don't see New Jersey Transit bosses running to Trenton for money every year either.