GENERAL ELECTRIC PASSENGER DIESELS

[goodnightjohnwayne]

If you actually have traveled in Europe, you'd notice that the air quality in a number of European cities is worse than L.A. on the smoggiest day. Europe has had some fairly lax diesel emissions standards, which has lead to very high levels of particular emissions - and as we all know, diesel particulates are carcinogens. Then there's the issue of large quantities of smog forming diesel emissions which require urea injection. Diesel cars are dirty at the tailpipe without expensive technology and cost maintenance, hence the lack of popularity. Overall, the EPA has been successful in improving air quality in the last 4 decades, far more successful than the environmental regulators in Europe and Canada.

Well I guess if you count Eastern Europe as part of Europe, but i would suspect that poor urban air quality is highly correlated with cities that offer Trebant tours. Given the sheer quantity of environmental finger wagging and judgment flowing over from Canada and Europe I would say that whatever environmental standards they want to adopt are probably better than what we have here.

No, the air quality problem is a very big issue in Western European cites, especially in countries where diesel passenger cars are dominant in sales. Basically, the EPA has fairly responsible standards for exhaust emissions, while Europe has slack standards. America leads in terms of environmental regulations and the Europeans preach about the environment, but are more concerned about industry, not human lives.

The large amount of smoke indicates that the engines are working hard for me, the customer. Besides its traditional for railroad locomotives to blast large quantities of black stuff out the top.

No, excessive black smoke indicates unburnt fuel and particulates. That means higher fuel costs which are passed along to the shippers.

Of course, there was that recent study that indicated that a single huge container ship puts out more emissions than 50 million personal automobiles. It makes railroad locomotives look fairly clean in comparison.

Well of course because modern passenger vehicles have almost no classic emissions any more. That statistic is highly faulty as one could say that container ship puts out more emissions than an infinite number of Tesla Roadsters or Nissan Leaves. Hell, my 1969 Mustang probably out more emissions than 50 million modern personal automobiles. Forget about closing the garage door and letting the engine run, I'm lucky to back out of of the driveway w.o asphyxiating myself.

BTW EMD's website says that the 710 will meet Tier IIIB requirements by the end of this year and that they can deal with NOx better than most other diesel engine designs.

Hey, I have nothing against 2 cycle engines. Personally, I've seen more soot from GE locomotives than from well maintained EMDs. I'm still amazed by a well maintained 50 year old "Geep," but I've also seen some poor old Geeps that were in poor condition, putting out more smoke than motive power. I really don't care how emissions requirements are fulfilled, although I can assure you that with Caterpillar at the helm, EMD will have access to all of the money and technology to meet requirements for decades to come.

[HBLR]

I'd love to see a GE motor generator set in a locomotive.

[Nasadowsk]

Well I guess if you count Eastern Europe as part of Europe, but i would suspect that poor urban air quality is highly correlated with cities that offer Trebant tours.

Visibility from Berlin's TV tower is a few miles, at best. The air's that bad in many German cities...

As for EMD Meeting Tier III? Big whoop - IV is out, V and VI aren't gonna be far behind. Large marine engines, which are basically unregulated (still, but who knows how much longer), are about the only other 2 strokes out there.

The big gains in the US are off highway. That means construction equipment, your lawnmower, and railroads, among other sources. There's really not much that can be gotten out of cars today anymore - they're that clean.

Oh, and most Japanese and Euro-spec cars can't even meet US, let alone California's standards. Cali's are the toughest out there, period...

[jonmurr]

EMD is in an interesting place with the 2-stroke 710. Referencing the current Trains article, it states, that the 2-stroke runs "cooler". This is a simplification of the fact that the 710 has lower combustion temperatures than a 4-stroke diesel, at similar power and weight levels. High combustion temperatures create oxides of nitrogen. Thus, by happenstance of design, the 2-stroke has an advantage over the 4-stroke, at least for this consideration. And it is the big one.
Diesels produce 4 things that are bad. (well 5, if you count CO2, but that is another issue.) Carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons, and particulate matter (free carbon) are byproducts of incomplete combustion. These pollutants have been addressed with improvements in injection technology primarily, with incremental changes in engine design, bore sealing and valve guide clearance for example, where piston engines can ingest their lubricating oil.
The tricky pollutant is the oxides of nitrogen. At high combustion temperatures, oxygen combines with the normally inert nitrogen gas that, of course, comes in with the oxygen. The thing is, high combustion temperatures are want you want. They improve combustion efficiency, cutting down the other three pollutants. diesels inherently have high combustion temperatures.
Currently, there are two technologies fully developed to reduce NOx. One is exhaust gas recriculation. As the name implies,
you dump some of the exhaust back into the intake. This displaces some if the burning material, and lower combustion temperatures result. Ta-da, less NOx formed. This works best for automobiles and light trucks, as they spend most of their time at light load, when this process is most effective.
The second process uses a form of catalytic converter. The exhaust is combined with urea in the converter, there is a intermediate step that makes ammonia, then the NOx is split into nitrogen and water, with the hydrogen supplied by the ammonia.
Sticking points number two. There is the capital cost of the converter. Where formally existed a section of pipe to the top of the car body, now you have a large stainless cylinder full of precious metal. And the urea. It is consumed at a ratio of 1 part urea to 64 parts diesel on the low side to 2 in 64 on the high. So all the fuel racks have to be updated with urea stations. Lots of capital cost.
How does the 2-stroke make less NOx than the 4-stroke? This is answered by the difference in their cycles. The simplest explanation for how a piston engine makes more power is, it moves a certain amount of air in and out over a period of time. A 2-cycle diesel produces a power stroke with every revolution. In other phrasing, a 710 makes twice the explosions of a 7FDL at the same RPM. Why doesn't the 710 make twice the power of the 7FDL? The 710 blows the exhaust out of the cylinder and fills it with new air only in the time the air ports at the bottom of the cylinder are above the piston on the way up, and is only pushing on that piston as long as those ports are covered. A 710 uses half of a stroke for each event, as opposed to a whole one. The 7FDL has a discrete stroke for each event. A whole, unbroken cylinder for each event. Intake, compression, power, exhaust. The effective compression of the 710 is lower than the 7FDL, but is makes more seplosions per minute , so it comes out close.
The unintended consequence of this technology is, EMD may be able to squeak the 710 under the emission standard with out costly urea systems. This could be a game changer for them, as railroads are loath to spend capital on a system that may be obsolete soon anyway.

[Jersey_Mike]

Visibility from Berlin's TV tower is a few miles, at best. The air's that bad in many German cities...

As for EMD Meeting Tier III? Big whoop - IV is out, V and VI aren't gonna be far behind. Large marine engines, which are basically unregulated (still, but who knows how much longer), are about the only other 2 strokes out there.

The big gains in the US are off highway. That means construction equipment, your lawnmower, and railroads, among other sources. There's really not much that can be gotten out of cars today anymore - they're that clean.

Oh, and most Japanese and Euro-spec cars can't even meet US, let alone California's standards. Cali's are the toughest out there, period...

The number one concern for the EPA should be dealing with the effects of heat trapping gases. The Hippies in California may have been able to push through all sorts of crazy emissions controls, but they come at the expense of atmospheric aerosols that reflect sunlight and help mitigate the effects of CO2 build up.

I also think the EPA is beginning to suffer from scope creep. While off-road engines certainly are the largest source of certain types of pollution, the quantity of pollution is far less than it was back in the day. With the exception of rail yards that can concentrate diesel pollution within a small area (and can be handled as special cases), the main line locomotive fleet is not presenting a threat to anyone. I have more problems from poorly maintained dump trucks and stink-buggies than the occasional diesel locomotive that labours up the steep grade 1/2 a block from my apt. Perhaps they should declare victory on old school pollutants and get to work on something more important like leaks of Methane and other high impact heat trapping gases. Getting trucks and commuters off of the road with policies that support cost competitive diesel engine technology will save more lives than cutting the small amount of NOx they generate.

[Tadman]

I've always thought a great way for EMD to make a passenger locomotive would be to offer the JT42 export locomotive to Amtrak in an A1A-A1A configuration. It has less weight and smaller height, meaning it might be optimal for passenger work even out east.

As for commuter, I think an SD70 would fit the bill nicely, maybe even a 710-12-cylinder or A1A-A1A variant with an HEP pony motor.

[DutchRailnut]

You will never see a six axle unit on Amtrak again.

First reason: 6 axle trucks are hard on rail
Second reason: 6 axle trucks do have trouble tracking at high speed (yes even the french and german units did)
Third reason: why have A1A and drag a unpowered axle , we are no longer limited to low axle load tracks like in 60's

forth : why is this thread turning into EMD topic ?????
Leave locomotive purchases and choice to those that know the in and outs, and no Im not in that circle either.

[GP40 6694]

Something interesting to note is that other than NYC area railroads that have some highly specialized needs, almost every commuter rail operation out there is getting MPI units, and they are performing well. They're fast, efficient, quiet, and clean. Not sure this means anything for Amtrak, as I don't see the P42's going anywhere for a long time.

[D.Carleton]

Speaking of GE passenger locomotives (that is the topic, right?) they are currently partnering with MPI for an order of HSP-46’s for MBTA. These will be MPI’s first AC propulsion locomotives. GE is providing the guts and MPI is building a package to fit it in. Doing some quick math, if one takes the current GE AC propulsion passenger platform, the P32AC-DM, and swap out the 7FDL12 with the EVO-12 the final product weight should be around 279,700 lbs. So it’s still within the weight of an MPI MP40. And two interesting articles have pointed to GE’s increasing role in the design of the new locomotives. So it shall be interesting to see if the HSP-46 resembles the proposed Genesis Series III or the existing MPXpress series. I know what an ALCo-GE builder's plate looks like; what about a MPI-GE plate?

[DutchRailnut]

As side note the step from a GE AC locomotive to a Dual mode third rail locomotive is really small.
And soon MNCR may be looking at suplimental/replacement units of P32acdm, a small bet is that a HSP46ACDM is not far off, if they keep the carbody within specifcations.

[GP40 6694]

As side note the step from a GE AC locomotive to a Dual mode third rail locomotive is really small.
And soon MNCR may be looking at suplimental/replacement units of P32acdm, a small bet is that a HSP46ACDM is not far off, if they keep the carbody within specifcations.

What does MN need more dual-modes for? Also, how much height reduction would be required on a current MPI unit to fit in Park Ave?

[Jersey_Mike]

GE’s increasing role in the design of the new locomotives. So it shall be interesting to see if the HSP-46 resembles the proposed Genesis Series III or the existing MPXpress series. I know what an ALCo-GE builder's plate looks like; what about a MPI-GE plate?

The Genesis uses a semi-monocoque design that was developed in part with some German firm. I am not sure that GE alone would be able to provide MPI, a traditional body on frame manufacturer, with the sort of design help needed to come out with a Genesis-like locomotive. Besides, with almost all the reviews on the Genesis design being "meh" I would hope that they might learn their lesson and try something new. I mean why go to MPI at all unless you want something that looks halfway cool.

[HBLR]

If looks of rail equipment equated to how good they actually performed vs specs, things would look very different.

I personally don't give a damn what a locomotive looks like as long as it doesn't crap out, and i get where i'm going safe and on time. Just look at the high horsepower 8000 units, all sleek and powerful looking, yet i hear about them breaking down and having problems all the time, then you look at the arrows nj transit uses, they look like ugly boxes on wheels yet they seem to get the job done even with many more direction changes per day.

Just saying.

[Jeff Smith]

Site Admin Note: moved to passenger equipment; more of a GE vs EMD and different railroad type topic. It's an interesting discussion, and I don't really want to close it off. Will let new mod retitle as desired.

[goodnightjohnwayne]

GE’s increasing role in the design of the new locomotives. So it shall be interesting to see if the HSP-46 resembles the proposed Genesis Series III or the existing MPXpress series. I know what an ALCo-GE builder's plate looks like; what about a MPI-GE plate?

The Genesis uses a semi-monocoque design that was developed in part with some German firm. I am not sure that GE alone would be able to provide MPI, a traditional body on frame manufacturer, with the sort of design help needed to come out with a Genesis-like locomotive. Besides, with almost all the reviews on the Genesis design being "meh" I would hope that they might learn their lesson and try something new. I mean why go to MPI at all unless you want something that looks halfway cool.

Other than providing the GEVO prime mover, it's far from clear just how much assistance GE would provide to MPI. I personally don't see any reason why MPI couldn't use cowl carbody and the same second hand Blomberg trucks that it uses on its current offerings. The only thing really unique about the Genesis design is that it was designed for the clearance restrictions in GCT and NYP. If MPI had an order from Amtrak or the MTA, I'm sure it could supply a cowl body locomotive that would meet clearance requirements. The same goes for a third rail powered dual-mode, which would require fabricated trucks.

When it comes down to it, the North American diesel-electric passenger locomotive business isn't very complex. If you get an order, you can outsource vital components and engineering. Actually, it wouldn't make any sense for a company the size of GE to maintain a permanent presence in such a small, unstable market, although GE might make a little money now and again partnering with MPI.