Need help identifying Third Ave. El locations - 1955

[Otto Vondrak]

Hal Carstens visited New York City to shoot the Third Avenue Elevated before the Manhattan section was abandoned in May 1955.

Any help?

-otto-

[mkm4]

In the lower left corner of the first picture is a sign that has "wery lum", which could be for Bowery Lumber which was located at 310 Bowery St.

[giljanus]

In the lower left corner of the first picture is a sign that has "wery lum", which could be for Bowery Lumber which was located at 310 Bowery St.

This is the Houston Street Station - at this point the 3rd Avenue El is running up the Bowery. That is a downtown train. The El goes to the right up near Cooper Union - at that point it will actually be on 3rd Avenue.

The 2nd photo - no clue at the moment - the signals look slightly different from what you would have normally seen on the 3rd Avenue Els - they were shorter. If you look at the photos on nycsubway.org of the 3rd Avenue El - you can see how short they were.

3rd photo - does look like Bronx - but I have no idea of the station - there appears to be a single track spur leading off to the left - but it doesn't appear to have any track laid.

Gil, known as Bill somedays ...

[Otto Vondrak]

Good eye, and thanks for the leads... I'll see if I can't get more details about these photos.

[giljanus]

(Note added on Thursday afternoon - you can ignore this post - it's got good info, but I was lead down the wrong path, due to not looking at the train first - I looked at the physical El construction - there's some interesting info here - but it's not really needed for identifying photo #3 - Gil)

Photo 3 - if one looks at this photo - http://nycsubway.org/perl/show?53332 - these El structures look similar - smallish round vertical pillars and X-braced girders under the track structure.

That photo is of the infamous 110th Street curve on the 9th Avenue El - the first El built in NYC. It is in this article - http://nycsubway.org/articles/rapidgreatcities.html

Here is an even better view of the El structure - http://www.shorpy.com/node/8343?size=_original - compare the columns in this shot to the ones in photo #3 - I would say a match for the basic construction style.

This could be a shot of the Polo Grounds Shuttle that ran from 1940 (end of 9th Avenue El service) until 11:59pm on August 31st, 1958 !

That would allow that construction style to show up in a photo Hal took in 1955.

Maybe this is part of the leads to/from the 159th Street yard that the 9th Avenue El had - which would make this Manhattan - not the Bronx - and it might be the parts that were kept to support the Shuttle operation. Most of the yard was scrapped by 1946.

See http://www.nycsubway.org/lines/9thave-el.html for some history. There is large Historical photo collection available for browsing.

Here is a rather large, annotated photo gallery of the 9th Avenue El - http://picasaweb.google.com/MercuryWW/NYC9thAveEl.

Also check out - http://cid-616b1f67315e9e01.office.live ... L9/Yard159 - just the 159th Street Yard Complex.

And if you click on the L9 at the top of that gallery, you will go up to yet another gallery covering the 9th Avenue El.

And, how about an early film - going around the high curve at 110th Street - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9XLGc7d0zA

And now for a little bad news - I can't find any other shots of that particular car type - now I haven't looked everywhere, and I haven't dug out my EL books - buried in the basement at the moment - put it looks a little strange - only 2-doors per car, inset from the ends, no provision in the floor beams for a third door, but the front looks like many other NYC El/Subway cars - so I'll keep looking.

Hope this helps, or leads you in a good direction.

Gil, known as Bill somedays ...

[RedbirdR33]

Otto: The third photos is BMT C-Types on the Fulton Street El. It could be the section of the el between Chestnut Street and Crescent Street.

Larry, RedbirdR33

[giljanus]

Otto: The third photos is BMT C-Types on the Fulton Street El. It could be the section of the el between Chestnut Street and Crescent Street.

Larry, RedbirdR33

That appears to be correct - see this photo (no date) for a view of the same location, slightly different angle - http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?6600 - the green roofed gas station is visible behind the El, and the station is just before the curve.

Gil, known as Bill somedays ...

[giljanus]

And here is yet another view - from inside of the curve - look at the new (or just new facade) on the building behind the El - it is visible in photo #3 - http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?26424

Both this photo and the previous one are identified as being Liberty & Euclid on the BMT Fulton Street El, with Type C cars.

Gil, known as Bill somedays ...

[giljanus]

For photo #2, I started with 3 things to look for:

station roof line and supports;
3 track El line, high signals;
a Gate car, with special signs and 1 white flag.

So, what do we get:

a photo - http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?75583 - shows a similar, if not identical train, but in 1956.

another photo - http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?75580 - shows an identical train, and notice the blue paint on the roof edge.

and another one - http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?75584

and another - different photographer - http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?113313

and another - http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?6624

and another - http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?75650

and another - http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?75582

and another - http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?75581

And here is the absolute proof - http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?93671 - same train, same buildings, same shooting angle - using the caption, we are at Hewes Street on the BMT Nassau St./Jamaica Line on 4/22/1956 watching a Fan Trip using Brooklyn Union Elevated Gate cars #1315 and #1382.

Gil, known as Bill somedays ...

[Crabman1130]

Otto: The third photos is BMT C-Types on the Fulton Street El. It could be the section of the el between Chestnut Street and Crescent Street.

Larry, RedbirdR33

That's what I thought as soon as i saw the picture.

[Passenger]

In the first photo I recognize the Cooper Union building (whisch it still there). That is the red stone building with the clock. So that's about 6th street looking north. Minus the el, it looks almost like that today.

[Otto Vondrak]

In the lower left corner of the first picture is a sign that has "wery lum", which could be for Bowery Lumber which was located at 310 Bowery St.

This is the Houston Street Station - at this point the 3rd Avenue El is running up the Bowery. That is a downtown train. The El goes to the right up near Cooper Union - at that point it will actually be on 3rd Avenue.

In the first photo I recognize the Cooper Union building (whisch it still there). That is the red stone building with the clock. So that's about 6th street looking north. Minus the el, it looks almost like that today.

You're right! Must be from the Houston Street Station looking north as the next station was 9th Street (and Cooper Union is on 8th/Astor Place).

[Otto Vondrak]

And here is the absolute proof - http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?93671 - same train, same buildings, same shooting angle - using the caption, we are at Hewes Street on the BMT Nassau St./Jamaica Line on 4/22/1956 watching a Fan Trip using Brooklyn Union Elevated Gate cars #1315 and #1382.

Gil, known as Bill somedays ...

Wow, excellent detective work! Thank you so much!

[Otto Vondrak]

And here is yet another view - from inside of the curve - look at the new (or just new facade) on the building behind the El - it is visible in photo #3 - http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?26424

Both this photo and the previous one are identified as being Liberty & Euclid on the BMT Fulton Street El, with Type C cars.

Gil, known as Bill somedays ...

I think this is a safe bet. Thanks again for your help!!

[giljanus]

...
Thanks again for your help!!

You're welcome - it is clear to me, that identifying the train set should come first, and then the location second. It was much easier that way.

Gil, known as Bill somedays ...