Bar cars: end of an era?

[Ridgefielder]

Ridgefielder do we have to explain again about the asbestos and remnants of PCB's or you think you got it first time ???

Jeez, Dutch, I was just saying "it's a shame they can't save one" not "the state should overhaul it and run it in tandem with a couple Osgood-Bradleys and the Watch Hill and F units on the Beacon Line and EVERYONE WILL RIDE IT!!!"

[DutchRailnut]

you can't save it with those materials in it, in any way shape or form.

[Tommy Meehan]

Just out of curiosity DRM has one or two Washboard MUs preserved don't they? I know they have PCBs (or had them), I don't know about asbestos. Are they Grandfathered in?

[TomNelligan]

PCBs were generally found in high voltage transformers, so if you remove the transformer(s) you get rid of the PCB issue.

[DutchRailnut]

The washboards have no propulsion system, all was removed years ago before regulation, no motors no contactors. no transformers strictly work cars with no possibility to be restored.
as for M series cars, MN can not strip those cars anymore due to EPA regulations and fact that no money can be allocated to non-railroad business.
they can not transfer the problem to 3th party other that certified disposal contractor, and as such the cars are already sold and no longer property of MN or CDOT.

[Tommy Meehan]

One question I had about the demise of bar car service was about the Danbury Branch. When the M-2 bar cars originally went into service in 1974 I guess they replaced all of the existing bar cars on the New York-New Haven main line. When did the bar car service to Danbury end? They were using the conventional equipment until about 1983 when the first Bomb cars, the Shoreliners, were put in service. Did they continue bar car service until that time? I occasionally rode those trains from GCT but I don't really remember.

I don't believe any of the ConnDOT Bomb cars ever came equipped with bars, did they?

[DutchRailnut]

There were two CDOT bombardier bar cars one was 6264 forgot other, both were converted back to full coach around 1990, due to CDOT Bomb trains no longer running captive on Danbury branch.
These days all bombardier trains rotate over all 3 lines, so it would have been all or none, as MNCR does not want bar cars the decision was easy.

The two Bar cars had about 5 3 seaters removed and a small bar , made in house by MN forces.

[Tommy Meehan]

Thanks Dutch, that's very interesting. So the bar car era ended on the Danbury Branch almost twenty-five years ago!

[Ridgefielder]

There were two CDOT bombardier bar cars one was 6264 forgot other, both were converted back to full coach around 1990, due to CDOT Bomb trains no longer running captive on Danbury branch.
These days all bombardier trains rotate over all 3 lines, so it would have been all or none, as MNCR does not want bar cars the decision was easy.

The two Bar cars had about 5 3 seaters removed and a small bar , made in house by MN forces.

Wasn't the "bar" actually a cart that was rolled on board fully stocked? That's what I seem to remember, although maybe I just thought it *looked* like a cart.

Also, IIRC, by the late 80's/early 90's, the bar closed at South Norwalk. Not sure how far back you'd have to go to find a cafe car that was technically operating-- i.e. serving drinks-- when on Danbury Branch rails proper.

[Tommy Meehan]

Btw I Googled "6264" (hoping to find a photo), I didn't find any photos but I found the number of the second ConnDOT Shoreliner Bar coach. Dutch posted it here not quite eight years ago.

6257 P.T. BARNUM (ex bar coach)
...
6264 NORWALK (ex bar coach)

Eta - I did find photos of 6257 and 6264 but they were both taken by Stephen Bradley in 2012 (at Poughkeepsie) long after they'd been converted.

[DutchRailnut]

There were two CDOT bombardier bar cars one was 6264 forgot other, both were converted back to full coach around 1990, due to CDOT Bomb trains no longer running captive on Danbury branch.
These days all bombardier trains rotate over all 3 lines, so it would have been all or none, as MNCR does not want bar cars the decision was easy.

The two Bar cars had about 5 3 seaters removed and a small bar , made in house by MN forces.

Wasn't the "bar" actually a cart that was rolled on board fully stocked? That's what I seem to remember, although maybe I just thought it *looked* like a cart.

Also, IIRC, by the late 80's/early 90's, the bar closed at South Norwalk. Not sure how far back you'd have to go to find a cafe car that was technically operating-- i.e. serving drinks-- when on Danbury Branch rails proper.

It just looked like and was size of platform cart, it was installed, no wheels etc. and yes the bar car always closed before south Norwalk and barkeeper deadheaded back to GCT.

[R36 Combine Coach]

Bar service to Danbury ended in 2002 or so. There was only one weekday train, 1868.

[Otto Vondrak]

I had heard that the original order of M-2 cars were not supposed to include bar cars, but they were added to the end of the order at the last minute after heated protests by commuters. True or just another old legend?

Does anyone have photos from aboard a New Haven Line bar car, from the 1980s, 1970s, or earlier? If you have photos you can share for publication, please get in touch with me ASAP (email otto at railfan dot com). Thank you!

-otto-

[Tommy Meehan]

I had heard that the original order of M-2 cars were not supposed to include bar cars, but they were added to the end of the order at the last minute after heated protests by commuters. True or just another old legend?..

Having just read some archived news articles I would say that's probably incorrect. But there was some controversy.

Back in 1968 there was a public fight between Dr. William Ronan the chairman of the MTA and Arthur Levitt the New York State comptroller over 31 bar cars being included in the purchase of 770 M1 cars for the LIRR that the MTA had placed. Levitt flagged that part of the order and said the state would not pay for bar cars. He said the agreement with LIRR called for the state to purchase "passenger cars" for the LIRR, and Levitt contended bar cars were not passenger cars. Ronan denounced this decision publicly and Levitt wrote a letter to the New York Times defending the decision. It was a fundamental difference in philosophy. Ronan contended the MTA needed to not just buy new equipment but also do the extra things required to make the service as attractive as possible to riders, to essentially maximize the state's investment. The no-nonsense Mr. Levitt contended the taxpayer should not be asked to subsidize commuters' drinking. (Reportedly the M1 bar cars cost 10% more than the $400,000 a piece M1s.)

In 1972 when the initial order for 144 M2s was placed, Ronan announced that twenty bar cars would be included. Reporters cited the earlier M1 dispute and asked, in light of it, how was the MTA able to do this? Ronan said (again publicly as reported in quotes in news articles) because this time the agreement had been worded a little differently. The agreement called for the purchase of rail cars not passenger cars. Arthur Levitt may have contended bar cars weren't passenger cars but he couldn't contend they weren't rail cars! Score one for the MTA.

[Otto Vondrak]

In 1972 when the initial order for 144 M2s was placed, Ronan announced that twenty bar cars would be included. Reporters cited the earlier M1 dispute and asked, in light of it, how was the MTA able to do this? Ronan said (again publicly as reported in quotes in news articles) because this time the agreement had been worded a little differently. The agreement called for the purchase of rail cars not passenger cars. Arthur Levitt may have contended bar cars weren't passenger cars but he couldn't contend they weren't rail cars! Score one for the MTA.

Thank you, but weren't the M-2s purchased or at least paid for by CDOT? I could see the fight coming from the NYS comptroller about a possible MTA purchase, but I imagine the NYS comptroller would not care what Connecticut does with its money...

-otto-