Rules Question: 19 orders vs. Block Limit Stations

[Cactus Jack]

Back in '76 when Conrail took over lines of PC, EL & LV etc. in New York State there was a change in operating procedures for track occupancy authority. On non-signalled track EL used 19 orders but that changed under CR about 1979 when thery went to a manual block system with block limit signs (yellow / red).

Was this a former PRR practice adopted on NYC lines after the PC merger ? I recall it used on ex-NYC lines in NY prior to CR.

What was the advantage of this system (Clearance Form K?) over 19 orders ? I suspect that this operating authority resulted from the closure of many of the depots over time.

Interested in hearing from the pre-NORAC rules experts on this and how NORAC differs from the previous CR practice of manual block authority

[Cactus Jack]

Not sure how my original subject line was changed, but are not 19 orders a function of manual block ? My questions was 19 orders vs. block limit stations and Clearance Form K's as instituted by CR perhaps of PRR origin. Sorry if that wasn't clear

[Otto Vondrak]

Not sure how my original subject line was changed, but are not 19 orders a function of manual block ? My questions was 19 orders vs. block limit stations and Clearance Form K's as instituted by CR perhaps of PRR origin. Sorry if that wasn't clear

Sorry I misunderstood your original question.

[ExCon90]

Block-limit stations were used on the PRR going back at least into the 1950s to permit the closing of block stations which were not particularly busy without the necessity of lengthening the block to extend between the open block stations on either side. In those days it was a permanently lighted signal with two adjacent roundels, one red and one yellow, with the yellow one next to the track governed, arranged with the light source behind one of the roundels and a mirror at a 45-degree angle inside the box to deflect the beam 90 degrees through the other roundel (in other words, one beam was directed through the roundel in front of the lamp, while the other beam came out "sideways" until it hit the mirror which directed it through the other roundel) so that it was impossible for only one light to be displayed -- if the lamp failed there was no night aspect at all, bringing it under the rule about absence of a signal where a signal is usually displayed. In later years the lights were replaced by the reflective panels we see today. (I believe one of the reasons for introducing trainphone on the PRR was to make it possible to issue clearance cards by trainphone, obviating the necessity of stopping a heavy freight train for the engineer to climb down and crank the wayside telephone.) Block-limit stations were carried over into Penn Central (I don't know whether the NYC had something similar, but they, like the PRR, had plenty of manual-block territory, so they may well have) and maybe Conrail. I don't have the resources to check right now, but didn't NORAC do away with manual block entirely, and is that one reason the Long Island stayed out, because they wanted to keep manual block? (They had an interesting variation on block-limit stations: certain block stations on the east end could be either block or block-limit stations, having manual semaphore arms back-to-back on the mast, but also the red-and-yellow block-limit signal, the operating timetable stating when the location was a block station and when a block-limit station.)
Form 19 was independent of manual or automatic block operation -- it could be used in timetable-and-train-order territory where no block-signal system was in effect (in which case it enforced what was essentially a time-interval system of train separation), or where block-system rules were in effect, resulting in a space-interval system.

[RDGTRANSMUSEUM]

excon90 i think your right about the NORAC doing away with manual block rules. I pulled out my old conrail op manual. I remember in rules class they blasted us about FORM D CONTROL SYSTEM or(DCS RULES)because it is circled in pen in my book. I do not remember ever operating on manual block rules, only the form D way.

[shlustig]

NYC usage had MBS applications in: (A) ABS territory for movements against the current of traffic; and (B) on lines governed by timetable and train orders which had 1st Class trains scheduled or otherwise operated such as Syracuse to Watertown and Massena. (If such a line had no passenger service, operation was timetable / train order / no-block, such as the KKK Line.)

[SooLineRob]

I recall copying Form D's during the time NORAC still had MBS Rules.

Without having a Form D from that era to reference, I'm uncertain as to how they've changed.

But I do recall copying Line 2's "...Operate in EAST Direction on SINGLE Track between ALPHA and ECHO...".

Another Line was copied (maybe 13?) which read "...Clear Block at ALPHA, BRAVO, CHARLIE, and DELTA...".

IIRC, that additional line which indicated "Clear Block" at the stations between the limits of your authority was NORAC's revision to having K Cards to pass (Manual) Block Signals.

I recall when DCS Rules were implemented (abolishing the MBS Rules), and the format how Movement Permit Form D's were copied changed thereafter (such as having additional authority added to your original Line 2).