• Amtrak Diner and Food Service Discussion

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by Suburban Station
 
BandA wrote: I can't imagine a union willingly allowing $30/hr workers to be replaced with $15/hr workers in the same job.
the skill level of Amtrak OBS personnel is not higher than people making half that elsewhere..probably it is worse considering the horrendous attitudes I've seen displayed by the cafe attendants. it's never made sense to me since they enjoy unusually high pay for a low skill job. one thing amtrak needs to do is change shifts en route rather than paying staff to ride the whole way and put them up in hotels. most food businesses would go belly up if they not only paid their workers twice as much but then paid for hotels on nights they worked. americans would have to learn how to cook again.




BandA wrote: Are the central commissaries already outsourced?
yes.
  by Dcell
 
It sounds to me that Amtrak can improve food variety and quality based on your comments. As an Amtrak customer about 20 times per year, that’s what I’m hoping for. I hope the labor issues can be worked out for the benefit of Amtrak’s snack car and dining car patrons and also Amtrak’s bottom line.
  by Greg Moore
 
bostontrainguy wrote:
BandA wrote:I can't imagine a union willingly allowing $30/hr workers to be replaced with $15/hr workers in the same job.
Sure they would. In my case there was a buyout. Us old fogies were given a large monetary bonus to leave. We also got our pension and walked away. We were replaced by new hires at half the cost. Now the union still gets my dues and also the new hire's so they doubled their membership and income. It could be a win-win-win.
The evidence from when Subway tried to replace the cafe attendant jobs on the Empire Service trains is contrary to your experience.
  by bostontrainguy
 
What? The Subway employees weren't Amtrak employees.
  by Rockingham Racer
 
Exactly, and therein lay the crux of the problem.
  by Dcell
 
I’m not privy to what happened with the Subway experiment. Can you elaborate? I have only found one article about Subway service on Amtrak trains from 2005 and that service ended after 1 week. Is that what some posters are referring to?
  by Rockingham Racer
 
Yes. There was a big stink over Subway taking jobs away from Amtrak employees.
  by Suburban Station
 
subway isn't even an upgrade in quality though I'm sure it was cheaper.
  by bostontrainguy
 
Rockingham Racer wrote:Yes. There was a big stink over Subway taking jobs away from Amtrak employees.
Not true actually. There was no food service between NYC and Albany when this was tried.

Amtrak and Subway Restaurant
November 15, 2005
From Altamont Press:


Amtrak and Subway restaurant chain team up on pilot project test

Starting Nov17, Amtrak Empire Service between New York City and Albany will offer a new on-board food service operated by the SUBWAY® restaurant chain.

Currently, trains that run exclusively between New York City and Albany do not provide food service.

The new feature will test the feasibility of vendor-operated on-board food service. “In response to our passengers who have previously indicated in research an interest in branded food items, we are pleased to conduct a pilot of the world’s largest sandwich and salad franchise and brand, Subway,” said Barbara Richardson, Amtrak Vice President, Marketing and Sales. “With so many of our passengers already familiar with Subway, we expect this pilot will be a positive first for Amtrak.”

“We at Subway restaurants are proud to team up with Amtrak to offer Subway sandwiches to hungry travelers,” said Paul Landino, a Development Agent for the SUBWAY® restaurant chain. “Subway restaurants have a reputation for maximum flexibility and being able to operate in areas that traditionally many other restaurants can’t operate in. This is a perfect partnership for both of our companies, who each serve customers that are accustomed to fast, accurate service.”

The SUBWAY® menu will feature a selection of the franchise’s famous sandwiches, along with soups, salads, pizza, beverages, desserts and other items from the train’s food service car. A SUBWAY® employee will also walk through the train, offering at-seat delivery to Business class and Coach passengers.

The new SUBWAY® food service will begin with a single round-trip on November 17 between New York Penn Station and Albany-Rensselaer and be expanded to all trains on the route (not including those that serve points north and west of Albany and already feature Amtrak food service).

Operating under a license agreement during the four month pilot, SUBWAY® will pay Amtrak a portion of gross receipts. From the knowledge gained through the pilot experience, in 2006 Amtrak plans to seek competitive bids from qualified vendors. (However, a Request-for-Proposal (RFP) has not been issued at this time and no decisions have been made with respect to trains on which the service may be provided.) - Amtrak News Release, courtesy Larry W. Grant
  by Rockingham Racer
 
Well, if you look at an Amtrak timetable prior to the era in question, you'll see cafe service was offered on every train going to/from Albany. And if I'm not mistaken, it was at the time of the "Subway stink" that Amtrak dropped cafe service between Albany and New York.

Here's a partial quote from another discussion board dated in 2005:

Amtrak officials were working to get the necessary permits so that Subway could serve beer and wine on the trains as well.

Black also declined to say whether union members had objected to the subcontracting of work that formerly was provided by unionized employees.

Efforts to reach union officials for comment were unsuccessful Monday.

Amtrak ended its own food service aboard the trains in July, estimating it would save $1 million a year.

Bruce Becker, president of the Empire State Passengers Association, said the rail advocacy group was disappointed by Subway's suspension. "We certainly hope Subway and Amtrak will work out any concerns and that the trial will continue," he said.
  by leviramsey
 
Consider the rough economics of a diner on the LSL. Staffing is around $160/hr (including taxes and benefits). The staff is on the clock for about 24 hours per run (allowing for delays). So that's $3800 in labor. The energy cost of pulling and powering the diner from NY to Chicago is about $1000. Then the staff have a couple of roomettes, do they not, so you have to look at the lost revenue for two roomettes from NYP-CHI which is something on the order of $600* (allowing for roomettes that go unsold and seasonal variation), plus a likely $50/night for hotel (If Amtrak is committing to 365 room-nights a year (double occupancy) with never more than 2 per night, just about any hotel in the Doublefairhampgardencourtrenaton bracket will happily rent the rooms at $50/night**) on the away leg. So that's $5450 or so in fixed costs for providing the sleeper.

An LSL run has about 8 hours of diner service and maybe does about 30 meals/hour. $5450 over 240 is about $22 that each meal has to charge over and above what Amtrak paid for the food, whether it's a man, woman or child. An omelet+toast+juice (wholesale cost about $3) needs to be $25. Ditto for a kid's hot dog+chips+milk. A steak+mash+veg+wine+dessert (wholesale about $10) is a more reasonable $32 (still pricey compared to TGI Chilibees), but if you can't get $25 for breakfasts or kids meals, we're talking a break-even price of more like $45-50. But you could probably make the diner break even if you took $55 from every sleeper ticket for meals (losing some on 49 and making it up on 48), but that suddenly makes abolishing sleeper service on 48/49 look economically promising (of course, without the sleeper patronage, the diners would pretty soon follow the sleepers onto the scrapheap). Even best case, if you had the diner packed from open to close every meal, you'd have maybe 350 meals a run and be able to cut about $7 per meal, which takes you from outrageous*** menu prices to merely a little bit unreasonable. And of course, the foregoing costs-of-goods-sold assume zero spoilage/shrink.

TL;DR: There is no universe where the LSL as currently run can break even on a diner.

So that leaves open the question of whether the LSL can be run differently to have a more viable diner.

Consider for the moment if the LSL was rescheduled so that 48 and 49 were both day trains west of Buffalo, with 48 arriving around 10 at Buffalo and dropping the diner and 49 departing Buffalo about 5am with the diner. You'd eliminate nearly half of the labor (call it $1600 a trip). You'd save $500 in energy, offset by maybe $200 in switching at Buffalo (maybe that's the second life for the P* locomotives: HEP-equipped switchers and rescue locomotives in Buffalo). You'd no longer be giving up $600 a run in sleeper revenue to provide the staff a place to sleep on board. But there'd be no decrease in meal hours (you'd go from 1 breakfast and either lunch or dinner to 1 lunch and either breakfast or dinner), so this would cut the gross-profit-per-meal target to $8-$12 (350-240 meals per run), which effectively means take $7-10 off every meal, which might actually get some coach passengers to pony up and makes the sleeper->diner allocation go a lot further (though you would likely get more NYP-BUF sleeper tickets; since there would be no dining car for those, it would be unseemly to allocate for those pax).

Similar reasoning would apply to the Capitol Limited (with the rough midpoint being Pittsburgh), though it might make sense to switch the Cap to single-level with the opposite schedule as the LSL and route it via Harrisburg/Philadelphia/Baltimore while moving the Cardinal back to Superliners with a full Superdiner terminating in Washington and timed in Chicago to facilitate the western transfers (wild idea: daily through sleepers from the Builder/Zephyr/Chief with the Cardinal in the summer... brand it as The American: the ultimate land cruise in North America). The Cardinal is the most "western" of the NEC-Chicago trains, after all.

*: I'm including the coach fare, because the general impression I get is that sleeper pax will call an airline if the sleeper's not available rather than travel coach. Also note that this fare is based on the contemporary offering: if the NARP crowd are right that sleeper passengers writ large place a lot of value on the diner, then in the universe where 48/49 have diner service, this cost is more than I've pegged it.
**: The marginal cost for a hotel in that bracket to clean a room, check you in, feed 2 breakfasts, and check you out is less than $20 if they're not swiping a card. Speaking as a former Fairhampyard night auditor, if I had an available room, I was basically authorized by management to go as low as $70/night ($60 if it would mean a sell-out) to keep a late walkin from turning around.
***: I have seen articles musing about how wasteful Amtrak is, given that they charged like $9 a dozen years ago for a hamburger, so the high menu prices have their own toll on Amtrak's image.
  by eolesen
 
Why not just take the diner crew off at BUF and leave the diner in the consist?...

Sure, there's some cost of carrying the car without it producing revenue, but you eliminate any possible delays and costs involved with the switching.
  by mtuandrew
 
eolesen wrote:Why not just take the diner crew off at BUF and leave the diner in the consist?...

Sure, there's some cost of carrying the car without it producing revenue, but you eliminate any possible delays and costs involved with the switching.
Would be great if the Lake Shore Limited consistently maintained schedule. Right now it can routinely hit Buffalo-Depew anywhere from half an hour early to five hours late.

None of us are addressing the most profitable aspect: drinks. A $10 bottle of wine sells for $6 a glass or $30 a bottle; a $4 twelve-pack of soda pops sells for $2.50 a can or $30 total; a $20 twenty-four-pack of beer sells for $6 a can or $144 per case; by spending $4 on a 50¢ brew pack of ground coffee, a 50¢ gallon of water, a $1 sleeve of cups and a $2 pint of half & half, a snack bar can create sixteen $2.50 coffees grossing $40. These are all retail prices for supplies and not particular bargains at that, not wholesale like Amtrak can get. They also take negligible time for the crew to prep.

Also, we haven’t even scratched the surface on using the diner as a midday coffeehouse and after-dinner lounge. If customers of all socioeconomic backgrounds pay (pretax) $5 for an espresso drink or $15 on a martini on the ground without batting an eye, imagine what they would pay while trapped on a train.
  by Dcell
 
Thanks for the cost analysis. Seems my $50 - $75 for a hot dinner entree is not far off from the reality of break even for Amtrak. In this day of Grubhub, Uber Eats and other meal delivery services, could Amtrak allow riders to order their own breakfast, lunch and dinners for transfer into a train at specific station stops? What I mean is, could Amtrak let each rider order and pay for their own lunch via Grubhub or Uber Eats at say 10 a.m and have it ready when the train arrives at Station XYZ at noon? I see two big benefits - a rider would get the meal they want and Amtrak no longer has to staff a dining car at all.
  by electricron
 
Dcell wrote:Thanks for the cost analysis. Seems my $50 - $75 for a hot dinner entree is not far off from the reality of break even for Amtrak. In this day of Grubhub, Uber Eats and other meal delivery services, could Amtrak allow riders to order their own breakfast, lunch and dinners for transfer into a train at specific station stops? What I mean is, could Amtrak let each rider order and pay for their own lunch via Grubhub or Uber Eats at say 10 a.m and have it ready when the train arrives at Station XYZ at noon? I see two big benefits - a rider would get the meal they want and Amtrak no longer has to staff a dining car at all.
That's kind of what Amtrak does already when the dining car equipment breaks down and they can't serve the food aboard the train. I certainly remember dining on KFC once aboard an Amtrak train. But that's a one time far in between event. I have no idea how that affects that trains profitability - because the full diner car staff was already aboard the train.
But that would be difficult to do on a daily basis, because the trains are not always on time. Ubers and caterers are not going to wait hours on end to deliver food packages. They're going to show up and drop that loads at the stations or platforms. So Amtrak is going to need personnel at these station locations to keep the food from being stolen. Amtrak would probably have to hire more staff to watch the food at the stations than they presently use to cook the prepared food on the trains, and that certainly would not be cutting costs.
  • 1
  • 67
  • 68
  • 69
  • 70
  • 71
  • 137