North Coast Hiawatha - Big Sky Passenger Rail Authority (BSPRA)

[vermontanan]

I noticed that Livingston is only an hour north of Yellowstone. What's the history of that stop as an access point for national park travelers?

Gardiner was the NP stop for Yellowstone until the late 1940s, with some special trains running from Livingston to Gardiner until about 1953. Buses (Northern Pacific Transport) connected with main line trains at Livingston until the start of Amtrak, and there were bus connections in Amtrak days, also (seasonally). NP also advertised connecting bus service from Red Lodge (later Billings) and Bozeman throughout its history. UP and NP were the primary railroads advertising service to Yellowstone. CB&Q was a distant third with its trains to Cody, Wyoming. Also-rans were the Milwaukee Road with service to Gallatin Gateway (cutback to Three Forks) and even Chicago and North Western marketed Yellowstone through a really long bus ride from its railhead at Lander, Wyoming.

--Mark Meyer

[vermontanan]

Below is a perhaps more illuminating population density map:

Can you provide the link to the population map online, please?

--Mark Meyer

[rohr turbo]

Can you provide the link to the population map online, please?

--Mark Meyer

It is from a tool called CensusViewer here:
http://montana.us.censusviewer.com/client

Latest census data is from 2010 of course.

[RRspatch]

My suggestion to if they bring back the NCH is to run it on the following schedule -

Eastbound - Day, night, day and night.
Depart Seattle in the morning around 0800 and arrive in Chicago mid morning around 0900 or so.

Westbound - night, day, night and day.
Depart Chicago late evening at 2200 or 2300 and arrive in Seattle around 2100 or 2200.

This would provide an over night train between Chicago and Minneapolis/St Paul connecting with the proposed train to Duluth. At the western end it would provide a daylight train between Spokane and Seattle. The major drawback of this schedule is no connections at Seattle and middle of the night times for say Helena. Turn times at Seattle would be about 10 hours overnight and at Chicago about 12 hours during the day.

Run the train via Stampeed Pass for a shorter route and to avoid congestion at the Cascade Tunnel.

I'll leave it up to someone who knows the rail lines in that area better (Vermontanan) to flesh out the schedule.

[mtuandrew]

Serious question: would it be better to run daylight regional service Billings - Helena- Spokane, with layovers on either end and connecting buses Fargo - Bismarck - Miles City - Billings and (Calgary) - Shelby - Great Falls - Helena, or a through train CHI - SEA via Montana RailLink and BNSF? I’m leaning toward regional service myself. Easier to set up with many fewer complications by only having one primary host (and a fairly short distance over BNSF, which could be negotiated more easily than an entire route.) It would also largely serve within Montana’s southern tier, so it would make sense for it to be largely time-independent of the Empire Builder.

[Pensyfan19]

Serious question: would it be better to run daylight regional service Billings - Helena- Spokane, with layovers on either end and connecting buses Fargo - Bismarck - Miles City - Billings and (Calgary) - Shelby - Great Falls - Helena, or a through train CHI - SEA via Montana RailLink and BNSF? I’m leaning toward regional service myself. Easier to set up with many fewer complications by only having one primary host (and a fairly short distance over BNSF, which could be negotiated more easily than an entire route.) It would also largely serve within Montana’s southern tier, so it would make sense for it to be largely time-independent of the Empire Builder.

To somewhat back up what you are saying, what about regional rail service throughout half of the NCH's route, such as Spokane to Billings and Billings to Fargo or St. Paul, as well as other regional rail service in Montana such as Butte to Havre and Billings to Shelby via Great Falls?

[mtuandrew]

To somewhat back up what you are saying, what about regional rail service throughout half of the NCH's route, such as Spokane to Billings and Billings to Fargo or St. Paul, as well as other regional rail service in Montana such as Butte to Havre and Billings to Shelby via Great Falls?

I’m hesitant on rail service along the entire ex-NP just yet, though I think it could and should happen someday.

Aside from Miles City, there isn’t much at all between Billings and Bismarck - not a problem for a long-distance route where you expect more overhead travel, but a more significant issue for an expressly Regional train.

I do think Billings - Fargo could support service, especially as a second or third frequency northwest out of the Twin Cities (the other should go to Grand Forks and connect to Winnipeg), but I don’t think North Dakota would provide funding. Put a pin in that, let North Dakota advocate for itself once it sees how Montana’s theoretical regional service works.

Spokane - Seattle is under active consideration. Once Washington State has a handle on what budget it would need, I expect to see at least one train daily over Stampede Pass.

I like the idea of Shelby - Great Falls - Helena - Butte, especially if they can connect to Calgary. However, the railroad is inactive between Great Falls and Helena, and BNSF seems to like it that way. Fix that issue - maybe convince BNSF to lease the line to MRL - and maybe things change.

Obviously this all postulates that Montana purchases service, from Amtrak or from MRL directly.

[Westernstar1]

I'm a little confused. Were the CB&Q "Nightcrawler" and the CB&Q "Shoshone" trains two different trains, or was the "Nightcrawler" a nickname for the "Shoshone" train?

https://is.gd/jF9hkL

A couple of years ago, I emailed a fellow in management for the Amtrak Cascades. I asked him if there might eventually be a morning Cascade train, along the Stampede Pass, from Seattle to Spokane. He said there was an interest in such a train, but, so far, only an interest.

WS

[vermontanan]

It is from a tool called CensusViewer here:
http://montana.us.censusviewer.com/client

Latest census data is from 2010 of course.

Thank you.

--Mark Meyer

[vermontanan]

I'm a little confused. Were the CB&Q "Nightcrawler" and the CB&Q "Shoshone" trains two different trains, or was the "Nightcrawler" a nickname for the "Shoshone" train?

AFAIK, both the same train, though I never saw where C&S/CB&Q ever actually indicated a name in timetables.

A couple of years ago, I emailed a fellow in management for the Amtrak Cascades. I asked him if there might eventually be a morning Cascade train, along the Stampede Pass, from Seattle to Spokane. He said there was an interest in such a train, but, so far, only an interest.

WS

Actually, the state allocated money for a study of the service, but has not yet released its findings.

https://www.aawa.us/posts/update-on-eas ... ail-study/

--Mark Meyer

[vermontanan]

I like the idea of Shelby - Great Falls - Helena - Butte, especially if they can connect to Calgary. However, the railroad is inactive between Great Falls and Helena, and BNSF seems to like it that way. Fix that issue - maybe convince BNSF to lease the line to MRL - and maybe things change.

I can't understand why BNSF still keeps the Great Falls-Helena line intact. Little or no prospect of sustainable freight service. For a passenger train, it is probably the most-scenic route in Montana, but also the curviest. Would likely take 3.5 hours for the 88 or so miles of this segment - one that could be driven in 70 minutes.

The route lost most of its traffic as a result of the BN purchase of the Santa Fe in 1995 and the UP purchase of SP in 1996. Prior to that, much traffic from Canada to places like Southern Idaho, Utah, and Southern California on Canadian Pacific was interchanged to BN at Coutts/Sweet Grass to take to the UP interchange at Silver Bow (via short line Montana Western). After the "mergers," UP sold their portion (Keddie to Bieber) of the Inside Gateway to BNSF and granted BNSF trackage rights from Keddie to Stockton. With this, any such traffic to California could be handled by BNSF to California on its own route. And, UP didn't like its primary competitor to have a slice of the traffic for Idaho and Utah, so all this now is interchanged to UP from CP at Kingsgate/Eastport, and goes to destination via Hinkle, Oregon and Nampa, Idaho.

There is some residual traffic in this corridor, and it goes from Great Falls to Laurel, then MRL to Garrison, BNSF to Silver Bow, and then to UP. It's also one reason that BNSF "took back" the Montana Western route (Garrison to Butte, which is actually the second railroad named this in Montana - the first one ran between Valier and Conrad) in 2003 - just not enough volume to sustain.

So, Great Falls to Helena unlikely to see a through train again. Also, except for a short spur from East Helena to Montana City, no railroad left from Helena to Butte via Boulder anymore. Traffic has been operating via Garrison since about a year after the original BN merger in 1970.

--Mark Meyer

[Westernstar1]

Actually, the state allocated money for a study of the service, but has not yet released its findings.

https://www.aawa.us/posts/update-on-eas ... ail-study/

--Mark Meyer
[/quote]

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Thanks for the link, Mr. Meyer. I found the proposed Seattle to Spokane schedule interesting. Also of interest is that the proposal is for both a morning and midday train in each direction.

WS (Richard)

[mtuandrew]

Fascinating history of Montana railroading, Mr. Meyer. When suggesting Helena - Butte I meant to say via Garrison; I had no idea that the Butte - Garrison line had been leased off and then taken back.

[gokeefe]

I think it is notable in this thread that we seem to have once and for all concluded that anything running towards North Dakota is a waste, especially for a regional service in the "Southern Tier".

That's a good starting point for regional service planning ... Don't try to stretch out end to end ...

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[mtuandrew]

I think it is notable in this thread that we seem to have once and for all concluded that anything running towards North Dakota is a waste, especially for a regional service in the "Southern Tier".

That's a good starting point for regional service planning ... Don't try to stretch out end to end ...

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Exactly. For that matter, if the North Coast Hi rides again we could potentially see South Dakota lobby for it to be routed via Aberdeen. Wouldn’t be the best use of Federal dollars in re: mobility, but it would give South Dakota some political skin in the Amtrak game for the first time ever - those three votes (2S, 1H) are valuable.