North Coast Hiawatha - Big Sky Passenger Rail Authority (BSPRA)

west point wrote:Lets muck it up. Spokane - Seattle. Get a bucket load of money and rebuild the Milwaukee line. Allow BNSF trackage rights with severe restrictions. No freight less than 4 hours ahead of passenger train or have to follow passenger trains with holding sidings when cannot meet those restrictions. Short trains, high HP per trailing tons, no Haz Mat Maybe even electrify ?

That gives the important needed third crossing.

Actually rebuilding the Milwaukee Road (between Missoula and Ellensburg, anyways) would be a far better route for FREIGHT trains, and get those FREIGHT trains out of downtown Spokane, plus a much shorter route bypassing Pasco and Yakima (and the Yakima River canyon between Ellensburg and Yakima, the biggest single obstacle towards using the existing ex-NP route for passenger service.)

That route is of little use to passenger trains unless you want to bypass every possible revenue source whatsoever, and it'll never be a 250 MPH high speed rail line. Move the FREIGHT there, not the ridiculous "let's build a really expensive railroad for ONE passenger train a day and maybe let freight on it, but not within four hours of a passenger train movement" idea. The Cascade Line can be relegated to passenger service and the hotshot Z trains, and you still have three routes for the trains that actually make money and move America's freight.

west point wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:14 pmIf they extend to Sand Point, ID in the west...then they can connect to the Builder...

A very long wait at a questionable depot waiting for a train at o'dark thirty surrounded by a freeway and a body of water in the freezing cold?

Corridor ID: KFYRTV.com

Old North Coast Hiawatha rail route takes giant step towards reinstatement
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The North Coast Hiawatha route used to be in service during the 1970s, providing passenger rail service from Chicago to Seattle, following along Interstates 94 and 90 through North Dakota and Montana.

The Big Sky Passenger Rail Authority wants to reinstate the route, with vice-chairman Jason Stuart saying people in this region need more options to get to their destination besides driving for long periods of time.
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Last week, the idea of reinstatement got a big boost after an announcement from Senator Jon Tester, D-MT, stating the old route has been selected for Corridor ID funding. Being a part of the program means it will be developed as a long-term passenger rail project.
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Proposed stops would include most cities along Interstates 90 and 94, such as Fargo, Bismarck, Dickinson, Glendive and Billings.

wigwagfan wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 10:06 am

west point wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:14 pmIf they extend to Sand Point, ID in the west...then they can connect to the Builder...

A very long wait at a questionable depot waiting for a train at o'dark thirty surrounded by a freeway and a body of water in the freezing cold?

Yes but cmon WE'RE CONNECTING THE DOTS BRO its how you do passenger trains these days!!! Wait til we connect Pocatello with Pascagoula, 3x/day with full chef-prepared diner meals.

Don't worry that we still haven't really figured out the Detroit and Saint Louis trains and the Cascades are now running Horizon cars because ermagurd talgos are so dangerous bro.

I rode the Empire Builder over Stampede Pass and down the river through Cle Elum and Yakima in 1976 (so I missed the NP in Montana, as the NCH of that era used it, while the Builder used GN). It was signaled at that time, and I recall speeds in the 50-70 MPH range. The Stampede Pass route was 396 miles and 9:45 Seattle - Spokane. The Cascade Tunnel was 326 and 8:10. Both trains made about 40 MPH over that segment including one 5 minute stop (Pasco or Wenatchee). So, given funds for restoration of signals, restoration of superelevation and probably siding work, a Stampede Pass route seems viable.

The Stampede Pass route was 396 miles and 9:45 Seattle - Spokane. The Cascade Tunnel was 326 and 8:10.

In that time I could drive on gridlocked I-5 from Everett to Sea-Tac, catch an Alaska Airlines shuttle flight from SEA to GEG, wait in line for a rental car, drive on gridlocked I-90 during an ice storm (driving down that lovely hill at 5 MPH into the city), do my business, reverse back...and then do it all over again one more time.

There's no need for

given funds for restoration of signals, restoration of superelevation and probably siding work

when there is already a viable and very highly accepted alternative that does not require subsidy from the federal government or the State; one that is not only profitable but also returns taxes back to both the federal and state governments; and employs thousands of Washington state residents and pays good wages, benefits and taxes; not to mention Alaska Air group provides transportation services to Yakima, Walla Walla, Pullman - all cities Amtrak does not - and will not - serve. (Sorry, Wishram, but Alaska doesn't serve you.)

FRA provides more info: MontanaFreeExpress.org

Long-distance rail route through southern Montana garners another nod from feds
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During a meeting on Feb. 8, the Federal Railroad Administration also provided a bit more detail on where the North Coast Hiawatha service might stop if Amtrak ultimately restores the route, landing on service through Helena rather than Butte.

Big Sky Passenger Rail Authority, which was formed in 2020 under an obscure, century-old piece of Montana law to advocate for expanded passenger rail service through southern Montana, said the development is a “very strong signal” that federal authorities are invested in a restoration of the North Coast Hiawatha route.
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There’s been some uncertainty as to the precise location the North Coast Hiawatha route might take as it travels between Glendive and Missoula, and that piece of the puzzle is coming into focus. Per the FRA’s presentation, which includes a further-analysis-is-needed disclaimer, the preferred route will pass through Helena rather than Butte. The line east of Butte, over Homestake Pass, has been out of service for decades, meaning it would be a heavier lift to get that section of railroad in shape for regular use.
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And a line to Billings: NewsFromTheStates.com

Big Sky Rail Authority: ‘We are no longer debating feasibility’
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Big Sky Rail Authority Chairperson Dave Strohmaier said a federal rail study identifies two long-distance routes through Montana as preferred, an east-west line connecting Seattle to Chicago and a north-south line to Billings.
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Restoration of the North Coast Hiawatha is estimated to generate $271 million in economic benefits to seven states and cost Amtrak $68 million to operate, according to a 2021 report from the Rail Passengers Association. The report said the cost is offset by the collection of $41 million in fares and other customer revenue.
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First, Strohmaier said, the Federal Railroad Administration’s long-distance study examines the potential to reopen discontinued routes or new ones of 750 miles or more. That study will wrap up soon, and it identifies both the North Coast Hiawatha, connecting Chicago to Seattle through southern Montana, and a north-south line to Billings, from El Paso or Denver, as preferred, he said.
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One question people have asked is whether a train could run through Butte in the future, but it’s a heavier lift than Helena because of the lack of an active rail line east of Butte, Strohmaier said. However, he said Butte remains in the mix for the long game.

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 8:51 am And a line to Billings: NewsFromTheStates.com

Big Sky Rail Authority: ‘We are no longer debating feasibility’
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… and cost Amtrak $68 million to operate, according to a 2021 report from the Rail Passengers Association. The report said the cost is offset by the collection of $41 million in fares and other customer revenue.
...

So, the Federal Taxpayer is going to pick up $27 million more of Amtrak’s slack.

The foamers of this dream had better hope the house and Senate don’t drop Republican this fall.

Though that most congress critters for Builder and NC HIA are "R"?
IMO these 2 trains are really critical to the people of the area(s) served. The winters can be severe. With 2 routes at least one could back up the other if one route has some disruption. Another need is mentioned in the bulletin. Essential regional medical facilities need to be near a station so better care can be had by all. At least a level 2 Trama center also.

Do understand this post to mean that I am also pushing for other routes do the same.

west point wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 10:18 pm IMO these 2 trains are really critical to the people of the area(s) served. The winters can be severe. With 2 routes at least one could back up the other if one route has some disruption. Another need is mentioned in the bulletin. Essential regional medical facilities need to be near a station so better care can be had by all. At least a level 2 Trama center also.

These two trains are not critical to anybody. I grew up in the snow belt. If its bad enough to stay off the roads, (a) nobody is driving 60 miles to the nearest Amtrak station for a 1xday train to get medical help and (b) Amtrak is not running anyways, they don't run in bad snow anymore. We all know this because we discuss it to no end around here.

This train is a huge waste of time and money unless it can bring in serious tourism money around places like Glacier and Yellowstone.

On the western end, the most promising corridor for this train would be the Billings to Missoula segment. There is local support for that service and a seemingly willing host in place (MRL). Continuing further west runs into plenty of problems, however. Sandpoint to Spokane has always been a bottleneck and the route over Stampede Pass isn't time competitive with driving or flying from Seattle to Ellensburg, Yakima or the Tri-Cities. Even with massive federal investment, the run times from central WA to Seattle are at least double the drive times. I would rather see a daylight section of the Empire Builder added between Seattle and Spokane than trying to build ridership on a plodding route over Stampede Pass.

A wild card proposal might be a summer-only Auto Train via Bozeman. A large percentage of the airline traffic to BZN is renting a car at the airport and heading to Yellowstone. Could Amtrak capture enough of the market to justify an Auto Train from Seattle, MSP or Chicago?

John_Perkowski wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 12:08 pmSo, the Federal Taxpayer is going to pick up $27 million more of Amtrak’s slack.

The foamers of this dream had better hope the house and Senate don’t drop Republican this fall.

It feels unjust to label it Amtrak's slack when this is not a project they would be giving five minutes thought to absent States having two senators each.

Vincent wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 12:20 amA wild card proposal might be a summer-only Auto Train via Bozeman. A large percentage of the airline traffic to BZN is renting a car at the airport and heading to Yellowstone. Could Amtrak capture enough of the market to justify an Auto Train from Seattle, MSP or Chicago?

Never been there. Is facilitating people to bring cars to Yellowstone a good public policy objective?

dowlingm wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 1:44 pmthis is not a project they would be giving five minutes thought to absent States having two senators each.

Maybe I missed something, but have either of MT's senators asked for this? I doubt it...

dowlingm wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 1:44 pmIs facilitating people to bring cars to Yellowstone a good public policy objective?

Probably not, but it's also a bit of a fools errand... I'm sure there are some who fly into Salt Lake, Idaho Falls, Billings, Missoula, Jackson, Cody and West Yellowstone just to drive into the park, but that is by far a minority of visitors.

Most who go there aren't just going "to Yellowstone" --- they're taking the Great American Road Trip which involves seeing everything between their homes and northwest Wyoming.

We've gone there for over 40 years. Coming from the Midwest, we'd stop in South Dakota and Wyoming. From Arizona, we'd stop at multiple national parks in Utah prior to entering from the south at Jackson. From Texas, we'd stop at multiple national parks in Colorado.

If you're going to look at AutoTrain, there are much more important places to head prior to Yellowstone.