Canadian Border Crossing General Topic

[CNJ]

From the Plattsburgh (NY) Press-Republican:

http://www.pressrepublican.com/0100_new ... 04239.html

[Rockingham Racer]

Pre-screen passengers at every station along the way prior to entering Canada? How's that going to work?

[AgentSkelly]

Pre-screen passengers at every station along the way prior to entering Canada? How's that going to work?

Its how the EuroStar works. Passengers clear Customs & Immigration before stepping onto the platform.

And actually, there is a provision in the Canada-US Preclearance Agreement for if Canada wants to operate preclearance posts in the US as my understanding.

[george matthews]

Pre-screen passengers at every station along the way prior to entering Canada? How's that going to work?

Its how the EuroStar works. Passengers clear Customs & Immigration before stepping onto the platform.

And actually, there is a provision in the Canada-US Preclearance Agreement for if Canada wants to operate pre-clearance posts in the US as my understanding.

Note that in Britain the train stops only at stations with a wall round them. That is, you can't get on a train after having passed through passport control and then get out within Britain.

At present there are three stations in Britain where you can pass through passport control. They are: St Pancras (London); Ebbsfleet (Kent); Ashford (Kent). After Ashford the train passes through the tunnel. The train is not allowed to let people out at any other station and the doors are locked to prevent it.

In France you can be checked at Paris, Lille, and in Belgium at Brussels. Brussels is fairly strict. The last time I got on at Lille the passport control was rather lax, but that was before many of the terrorist incidents, so I don't know what it is like now. The French don't care about who leaves the country and didn't worry all that much about who enters from Britain.

There is a complication in France. Some trains that stop at Calais allow passengers to travel from Paris, that is within France. I am not sure how that is arranged. Is it possible to wall off a carriage for internal passengers only? In Britain internal traffic is not allowed. I think passengers can travel from Lille to Brussels, and possibly the reverse, but I am not sure. They would have to go through immigration in Brussels.

The customs and immigration posts are maintained at intermediate stations because there are many trains a day. It wouldn't be worth it for one train a day.

[Rockingham Racer]

Pre-screen passengers at every station along the way prior to entering Canada? How's that going to work?

Its how the EuroStar works. Passengers clear Customs & Immigration before stepping onto the platform.

And actually, there is a provision in the Canada-US Preclearance Agreement for if Canada wants to operate preclearance posts in the US as my understanding.

I see. Labor intensive, and good for the job market! How many stops are there on the Adirondack, Maple Leaf, and Cascades? It does add up.

[TomNelligan]

It would certainly seem that pre-screening at every northbound stop is impractical, although southbound screening by US Customs in Montreal and then sealing the train until Rouses Point makes sense. But what about Canadian agents riding the northbound train in upstate New York and checking Montreal passengers along the way? As a historical note, pre-Amtrak customs inspection occurred en route in both directions on both the D&H/NYC and CV/B&M routes between Montreal and the US. But I guess we didn't have terrorists, drug couriers, and hoards of illegal aliens to worry about in those days, just an occasional guy looking to smuggle a bottle of tax-free booze across the border.

[Rockingham Racer]

It would certainly seem that pre-screening at every northbound stop is impractical, although southbound screening by US Customs in Montreal and then sealing the train until Rouses Point makes sense. But what about Canadian agents riding the northbound train in upstate New York and checking Montreal passengers along the way? As a historical note, pre-Amtrak customs inspection occurred en route in both directions on both the D&H/NYC and CV/B&M routes between Montreal and the US. But I guess we didn't have terrorists, drug couriers, and hoards of illegal aliens to worry about in those days, just an occasional guy looking to smuggle a bottle of tax-free booze across the border.

When I was on the NYC/D&H Montrealer one night around '65, it was diamonds they were looking for, so I was told by a regular rider.

[AgentSkelly]

It would certainly seem that pre-screening at every northbound stop is impractical, although southbound screening by US Customs in Montreal and then sealing the train until Rouses Point makes sense. But what about Canadian agents riding the northbound train in upstate New York and checking Montreal passengers along the way? As a historical note, pre-Amtrak customs inspection occurred en route in both directions on both the D&H/NYC and CV/B&M routes between Montreal and the US. But I guess we didn't have terrorists, drug couriers, and hoards of illegal aliens to worry about in those days, just an occasional guy looking to smuggle a bottle of tax-free booze across the border.

The Eurostar I beleive had a simular setup in its early life where both UK and France customs did their inspection on board but that later turned into the actual posts at stations. I think even the "office" that both agencies had on board is still installed.

The Adirondack no longer needs to stop at St Lambert; it can be easily converted to a pre-clearence train like its sister, the Cascades over here on this side of the continent.

As for the Maple Leaf, that train could probably be the best candidate for Eurostar-style border controls because its a joint operation with VIA Rail Canada. Local and International traffic can be segregated easily with a proper buffer and probably would require two cafe cars, but it could be done.

Or the Maple Leaf could be converted to pickup-only on the US Side and a extra Empire Service train could follow behind for domestic service.

[Jersey_Mike]

I think the big issue is with the US Customs, not the Canadian one. The US officers really go over everything carefully, both inbound and outbound and often involve the drug dog. The Canadian officials just check ID and you're on your way. Sort of like France to UK and UK to France. The UK folks were very through, while the French ones usually can't be bothered.

The US clearly cares more about who gets in than Canada does and the Canadians could probably agree to putting someone on near the border then running a quick document check until the border. Also remember that the 'Dack runs (basically) doors closed to Montreal so the inspection could be carried out between the border and there. People deemed undesirable could be ferried back to the US from Montreal or St. Lambert.

[MACTRAXX]

Everyone: This is a good idea brought forward to help with the Customs delays crossing the US-Canada border-at least someone recognizes there is a definite problem here.

I agree that running the Adirondack as a sealed train from Montreal to Rouses Point and/or Plattsburgh,NY would be a good idea and those that would use St.Lambert could use a connecting AMT commuter train from Central Station.

I recall that when the Montrealer ran US Customs would board at the Quebec-Vermont border and then ride to St.Albans making US Customs inspections southbound.
I never rode the Montrealer N when it ran-did Canada Customs ride the NB train to Montreal making inspections enroute or was the Customs check done on a border stop?

I agree-the Maple Leaf is the big problem and questionmark-how to speed up the border checks and operate the train in a convenient manner that we all can agree on?
The current system of checking riders for correct documentation has to help here but also a sealed train could be a big potential problem in how the train gets handled by Amtrak and VIA.

The problem to watch is the potential abandonment of that half mile or so of track that CN has over the Whirlpool/Suspension Bridge-without this link the thru Maple Leaf
service as we know it now ends and the entire Niagara Frontier rail network will be down to just ONE track crossing the border - at the International Bridge between Buffalo and Fort Erie.

Thoughts and observations by MACTRAXX

[Gilbert B Norman]

During an August 1956 Montrealer/Washingtonian (with CN steam on the head) journey, both US and Canadian entry formalities were conducted on board and while en-route.

[Sisko24]

....The problem to watch is the potential abandonment of that half mile or so of track that CN has over the Whirlpool/Suspension Bridge-without this link the thru Maple Leaf
service as we know it now ends and the entire Niagara Frontier rail network will be down to just ONE track crossing the border - at the International Bridge between Buffalo and Fort Erie.

Thoughts and observations by MACTRAXX

Has there been any new information on the Whirlpool/Suspension Bridge (possible) abandonment? I thought funds from the Stimulus plan were supposed to be considered and allocated for keeping it open? It would be extremely ironic if Amtrak and VIA found a way to make border crossing easier only to have other forces (CN) make the whole issue moot. But that's a rhetorical understatement.

[gprimr1]

I've been looking at the maps, and it seems Canadian Customs could board the train at Buffalo and begin clearing people. Since Niagara Falls NY is the only stop between Buffalo and the US Boarder, anyone boarding at Niagara Falls could be checked before boarding.

US Customs could board at Grimbsy and just have agents at St. Catherine and Nigara Falls.

[nycr]

What exactly makes the Whirlpool Bridge so critical? Seems to me the train could easily be routed over the International Bridge in Buffalo instead. Niagara Falls would lose its stop but then it would still have two trains per day, and ridership is not so high anyway. If I am not mistaken that would potentially allow for a stop in Hamilton which would probably do more for ridership than NF.

[ramonesfan]

Everyone: This is a good idea brought forward to help with the Customs delays crossing the US-Canada border-at least someone recognizes there is a definite problem here.

I agree that running the Adirondack as a sealed train from Montreal to Rouses Point and/or Plattsburgh,NY would be a good idea and those that would use St.Lambert could use a connecting AMT commuter train from Central Station.

I recall that when the Montrealer ran US Customs would board at the Quebec-Vermont border and then ride to St.Albans making US Customs inspections southbound.
I never rode the Montrealer N when it ran-did Canada Customs ride the NB train to Montreal making inspections enroute or was the Customs check done on a border stop?

I agree-the Maple Leaf is the big problem and questionmark-how to speed up the border checks and operate the train in a convenient manner that we all can agree on?
The current system of checking riders for correct documentation has to help here but also a sealed train could be a big potential problem in how the train gets handled by Amtrak and VIA.

The problem to watch is the potential abandonment of that half mile or so of track that CN has over the Whirlpool/Suspension Bridge-without this link the thru Maple Leaf
service as we know it now ends and the entire Niagara Frontier rail network will be down to just ONE track crossing the border - at the International Bridge between Buffalo and Fort Erie.

Thoughts and observations by MACTRAXX

CN no longer uses the whirlpool bridge. amtrak is the only user and the owner of the top bridge (some bridge company) wants to abandoned it if amtrak does not pay for repairs sense they're the only users of the bridge.