Amtrak Empire Service (New York State)

[Rhinecliff]

Sorry for the serial posts, but I obtained the follwing information from New York State's complaint against Amtrak in its federal lawsuit, and I thought it might be interesting to our forum.

The State alleges that it has incurred damages relating to each set of Turboliner equipment in the following amounts (based on amounts already allegedly spent and already allegedly committed):

Set 1: $19.8 million
Set 2: $15.2 million
Set 3: $11.8 million
Set 4: $12.1 million
Set 5: $12.1 million
Set 6: $12.1 million
Set 7: $11.9 million

Total: $95.0 million

It is important to note that alleging damages is one thing; proving them is another. Also, it still is not clear just exactly how much money New York has already really sunk in this project because the complaint speaks in terms of money being both spent and committed. In addition, the complaint alleges that federal grants were involved. So the true amount of real State money that has been lost on the project remains unclear.

Also, turning back to the subject of this thread, I thought I'd share one of my memories of perhaps one of the poorest performances I have ever seen of Amtrak's food service operations.

Several years ago, I took my wife from Stamford to Boston for the Fourth of July weekend. On the return, out of South Station, Amtrak chose to open the gates approximately 10" before departure time. By the time Amtrak opened the gates, the line was enormous, and the passengers raced towards the train to get seats.

Once onboard, someone began announcing that the cafe car was closed, and that passengers should not come to the cafe care until futher announcement.

Shortly after Back Bay, the same announcement was made.

Then, about an hour later (somewhere around Providence) an announcement was made that the cafe car was totally sold out, and that no provisions would be stocked until the train leaves from New York.

I never even heard an announcement made that the care had even opened.

Shortly before New Haven, someone announced that there would be a soda machine on the platform in New Haven.

Upon leaving New Haven with the Springfield cars added, the same announcement was made about the food service car being totally sold out of everything, and that no food or beverage service of any nature would be provided until the train leaves NYP.

The absurdity of the situation was amazing. Amtrak was operating a packed 11-car train with a staffed cafe car with nothing to sell. On a busiy Holiday weekend, one would think that Amtrak would stock its cafe cars to the gunnels

[CNJ]

I remember back in the "pre-A" days that certain trains out of GCT (the Montreal Limited for one) just made the stop at Croton-Harmon to change engines and then it was non-stop to Albany.

Perhaps Amtrak need to have more dedicated expresses such that that.

[Gilbert B Norman]

They do, Mr. CNJ--

Trains 246 and 259 only make conditional stops at Hudson and Rhinecliff and chug right through Harmon just as they do Poughkeepsie

[mbutte]

In reply to the earlier question on way New York State gets such a 'free' ride from Amtrak in the Empire Corridor, a little historical perspective is helpful...

Way back on December 3, 1967, the day after the New York Central RR had run the last Twentieth Century Limited and all of it's other name trains, it introduced new 'Empire Service' timetables in New York State. These greatly reduced schedules provided three day time round trips New York to Buffalo and two other overnight trips across the state that continued on to/from Chicago. Between New York and Albany, there were an additional 2-3 round trips a day serving the Hudson Valley market.

This same frequency remained in place under Penn Central (with some minor changes) through April 30, 1971. May 1, 1971 under Amtrak saw the same number of trains, with the exception of the overnight Chicago train be cancelled (and briefly reinstated as a multi-state 401(3)b train, which quickly died because the states couldn't agree on funding (hint...sound like any current proposals being discussed in Washington?)).

Other than there being more Albany-New York trains and only one overnight train today, the current Empire Corridor schedule is very close to what the NYC RR provided in 1967.

No state funding then...No state funding now!

Michigan's Chicago - Detroit service also follows a very similar historical path, directly linked to the NYC RR schedules of 1967. Also here, No state funding then...No state funding now!

Outside of the Northeast Corridor, the Empire Corrdior and Michigan are the only two corridors where the current service level has changed very little from nearly 40 years ago.

[NRGeep]

They're not selling food and drink at wholesale prices so it seems if they kept their cafe cars etc fully stocked they would make at least a small profit though it could be a "catch 22" situation with the constant overhead issues especially at the present time. Perhaps "BYOB" could be a solution to the wine shortage? Well, that might not be prudent!

[AMoreira81]

On many Amtrak trains on the Empire Service of late, I have seen coaches on the trains looking like Shoreliner/Comet cars. (These cars are not in the latest scheme, but rather what resembles the Phase IV paint on the AEM7s.) Exactly how old are these cars, and were these piggybacked off anybody? Also, are these cars regulars, or are they being used because other Amfleets are on the NEC as a result of the latest Acela issue? Thanks.

[ryanov]

The cars are of the Horizon series. Most are in phase III from what I have seen. You are right about the reason for their use -- Amfleets are being used elsewhere. I believe they are akin to an NJT Comet II or so and are from the early 80's.

[DutchRailnut]

The Amtrak Horizons are based on Comet II bodybut thats were simularity stops.
They are very different. they ride on GSI outboard bearing trucks, they have regular Amtrak type seating of about 70 seats in 2 X 2 vs a commuter version having inboard bearing trucks and 120 seats in 3 X 2 commuter seats

[AMoreira81]

On a related note, reading about the Horizons and some riders' complaints about them on the Coaster (which appear to have been transferred from Southern California operations for use on the lines servicing the Hudson Valley), are they that less comfortable than the Amfleets normally used here? (NOTE: I only have had experiences on Amfleet cars, which ride like a dream. I may end up on an Horizon late next month if I take a trip to ALB.)

[Rhinecliff]

I recently rode on a Horizon "Business Class" coach while traveling on the Empire Corridor, which appeared to be nothing more than a full coach of 2-2 seating.

The ride quality was fine, but the interior atmosphere was deplorable.

Lights were too bright; the power strip is placed in a location that makes leaning on the wall from the window seat uncomfortable; the heating vent along the floor seriously impairs the leg room for the person sitting on the window seat; the only trash cans are located on one end of the car; the restrooms are obnoxiously small and historically smelly (although I did not encounter the smelly problem on my last trip).

I have long maintained that the Horizon fleet would best be relegated to true commuter-type services, such as the Hiawatha service, the Clockers, and the short-haul Keystones that travel only between PHL and HAR.

The sooner they are retired, the better.

[Railjunkie]

Keeping the cafe cars stocked is not the problem it is the willingness of the employee behind the counter to sell the items, there are some who will not sell certain items because to them its a pain in the neck to prepare. Why that is I dont know, most of the stuff can be microwaved or served as is.
When working a round trip, say to Niagra Falls, you could place an order for food and beverage out of NYP and ALB but you must remember you have limited space to store perishable items. If by chance on that trip business is not as good as you expected when arrived back in ALB the food and beverage not sold would be "condemed". Provided the dates were OK it would be placed back into inventory, as a result the car would show a bigger loss for the trip than if you went with what was issued and sold out of some items.

[Gilbert B Norman]

Oh well, I think I was "out there long enough' to have heard the old adiage "Figures don't line, but liars figure'.

As I understand Mr Junkie's statement, it would appear that unsold F&B product with good 'dates' is returned to commissary inventory, yet NO CREDIT is given to the RES/LOC for train from which the product was removed.

Condemmed to me means comdemmed, you can't sell the product, be it your train or the other guys!!!

If that accounting practice is actually in effect (and I guarantee you that if I were to "come out of retirement" to accept a Director level position within Amtrak's Responsibility Accounting area, it would not be for long), no wonder a responsibility does not wish his/her train to be stocked with anything if possible. I would suggest that Amtrak ensure that proper credit is given to the train's F&B Res/Loc for "in date" supplies returned. This would mean that a train will not be penalized for returning supplies, and further mean that Attendants will not have to mimic those stupid "NO" TV ads that some credit card issuer thinks will entice credit worthy souls to sign up for their card.

[AMoreira81]

They were probably best where they were (Southern California Coaster) before they were rushed to New York State. The sooner Acela's problems are fixed; the faster we can get back our Amfleets.

[AmtrakFan]

I prefer other cars to the Horizons. I can live nicely without their lighting and other 'commuter car' features.

John Poshepny

[Jishnu]

In reply to the earlier question on way New York State gets such a 'free' ride from Amtrak in the Empire Corridor, a little historical perspective is helpful...

Thank you very much for the historical perspective. It was quite informative for me.

Other than there being more Albany-New York trains and only one overnight train today, the current Empire Corridor schedule is very close to what the NYC RR provided in 1967.

No state funding then...No state funding now!

Michigan's Chicago - Detroit service also follows a very similar historical path, directly linked to the NYC RR schedules of 1967. Also here, No state funding then...No state funding now!

Outside of the Northeast Corridor, the Empire Corrdior and Michigan are the only two corridors where the current service level has changed very little from nearly 40 years ago.

Just one observation ..... The Chicago - Michingan corridor is still an inter-state service, and thus could legitimately claim funding through Amtrak, unlike the NYP - ALB - Buffalo service which is purely intra-state. It can be argued quite persuasively even today that it is politically infeasible to put together significant multi-state compacts to jointly fund inter-state service. But that argument IMHO does not apply to the Empire Corridor Service. It is purely a New York State service and therefore New York State should contribute operational subsidy. Of course one could argue that New York state is really two states - Upstate and Downstate, and those two states can't come to any agreement either, but that is still New York state's problem.