Corridor Electric Power Generation and Distribution

[Nasadowsk]

Reading's system was likely a lot lighter in capacity.

2 phase power is still seen in Philly in places, but it's being phased out I'd imagine.

Conrail.people I've talked to say they were baffeled by the cutting of electric traction - one says there was a time where you were in big trouble if you sent a diesel out under the wires without a good reason, if a motor could have done the trick. That changed in the early 80's.

It's sad too - the E44s had plenty of life left in them, the E60s could have been put into freight service where they were much better suited. Starting TE of an E60 is pretty much on the order of "high HP" AC diesel units, and they could maintain it higher too.

Converting the NEC to 60hz in the 60's? I'm not surprised - GE was offering 60hz capability at 11kv or 23.5kv (a/k/a 25kv) back then. They offered it to Septa and NJT every time. In fact, the Metroliners were 25kv and 60hz capable. I'm pretty sure ANY of the Silverliners can at least tolerate 60hz, and the IVs can run it no problem.

[chuchubob]

the E44s had plenty of life left in them...

A tribute to the E44s
PHOTO
PHOTO
PHOTO

and an E60
PHOTO

[PRRTechFan]

Somewhere I have an article explaining the Reading electrification.... I will try and find it and see if I might be able to post a link to the article. But one of the things that caught my attention was the method by which they transmitted power at a higher voltage and stepped down to the nominal 11kV traction voltage: Autotransformers!

I believe that the transmission voltage was 22kV, and it was dropped to 11kV at trackside substations by single winding 22kV/11kV autotransformers. In this case, the single phase, two wire 22kV transmission circuit would measure 22kV from wire to wire; but one wire would measure 22kV to ground while the other wire was... grounded! The advantages were that the transformers contained only one winding instead of two; less copper, less weight, less cost. As the Reading transmission system did not transmit power anywhere near as far as the PRR, the lower 22kV transmission voltage was acceptable; most likely due to the loads and distances involved. Autotransformers are not unknown to the electrical industry; but application at the voltages involved, and for traction power; can only be described as a novel approach!

[Jersey_Mike]

Conrail.people I've talked to say they were baffeled by the cutting of electric traction - one says there was a time where you were in big trouble if you sent a diesel out under the wires without a good reason, if a motor could have done the trick. That changed in the early 80's.

Well I'm not. Take out a map. Find New York, then find Harrisburg. Draw a straight line between the two of them and there's your answer. Back before Conrail, the PRR had the round-about route west out of/into the New York metro area which went south to trenton, then more south to Thorndale, then east all the way to Safe Harbour before making a 90o turn north to Enola. The reason this route was so successful was because the laternative was a three-seat ride from CNJ to RDG to PRR at Harrisburg. In fact, the Lebanon Valley branch of the Reading was one of their lesser used routes. When Conrail came along it concolidated the direct route from NYC to the West under a single roof which put compeditive pressure on the old PRR route.

The nail in the coffin was the way that NEC operations changed. Back before the NEC Improvement Project, the middle two tracks were freight, and the outer tracks were passenger. With the increase of the commuter market and the dawn of express passenger service, all 4 tracks were needed by passenger trains and center track space could not be wasted on slow freights (especially after freight railroads stopped scheduling freights and began running them as extras). Take in to consideration the enormous cost of the electrification its no wonder that Conrail dumped it. Why pay more for a less than optimal system. Today the former PRR electrified freight lines go largely unused, bypassed by changing economics and routings.

[Nasadowsk]

<i>Autotransformers are not unknown to the electrical industry; but application at the voltages involved, and for traction power; can only be described as a novel approach!</i>

Actually, I believe a lot of NJT and MN are done this way, too. There was a wrap up of the schemes in MK's origional report on Caltrain electrification (A decade or so ago). I seem to recall that autotransformers had some advantage or another...

[Noel Weaver]

Conrail.people I've talked to say they were baffeled by the cutting of electric traction - one says there was a time where you were in big trouble if you sent a diesel out under the wires without a good reason, if a motor could have done the trick. That changed in the early 80's.

Well I'm not. Take out a map. Find New York, then find Harrisburg. Draw a straight line between the two of them and there's your answer. Back before Conrail, the PRR had the round-about route west out of/into the New York metro area which went south to trenton, then more south to Thorndale, then east all the way to Safe Harbour before making a 90o turn north to Enola. The reason this route was so successful was because the laternative was a three-seat ride from CNJ to RDG to PRR at Harrisburg. In fact, the Lebanon Valley branch of the Reading was one of their lesser used routes. When Conrail came along it concolidated the direct route from NYC to the West under a single roof which put compeditive pressure on the old PRR route.

There is no way that the Lebanon Valley Branch of the Reading was
lesser used. The line was the main connection between the B. & O. and
the Western Maryland at Hagerstown via Harrisburg on one hand and
Allentown with connections to the L.V., C.N.J and the Lehigh and Hudson
River which further moved the cars to Maybrook for connection to the
New Haven for various points in New England.
There were major movements of coal, intermodal and general freight over
this line and it may well have been the busiest of any on the former
Reading.
Unfortunately, Amtrak's charges both for track use and for electricity to
Conrail were very high and Conrail rightfully determined that they had
their own lines parallel to Amtrak's lines over most of the electrified
territory and it was cheaper and more practical for Conrail to use their
own route(s) and run diesel power right through the entire area.
The above resulted in the retirement of a good fleet of electric locomotives
but it resulted in a better and more efficient operation of freight for
Conrail and that was what counted at the time and would today too.
Noel Weaver

[Wdobner]

I know of at least one single or two phase 25hz user in the Philadelphia area. Philadelphia Water Dept I believe still uses 25hz motors for their water pumping stations. From what I read on PWD's plans system it sounds like the pump motors in the East Park Pumping station (visible from the Rt15 at 33rd on the Northeast corner), are closely related to those which the GG1 used. I think they used a slightly stepped-down 13.2kv line voltage to provide something like 800hp from somewhere around a 1000 volts AC. I believe East Park came into service in the late 1940s when the water main system out of the East Park Reservoir - dating back to when it replaced the Fairmount Reservoir (now the Philadelphia Art Musuem) - was redone. I'm fairly certain the other Philly pumping stations, Lardners Point, Belmont (at least pre-rebuild), Queen Lane (again, now, before its anticipated rebuild), and Baxter all use either 25hz power or something else pretty wierd (lots of 13.2kv line feeds and single, triple and other stuff). All of our pumps include a transformer on site, but I'm not exactly sure how it all goes together. I'm fairly certain that the newer sewage pumps at Northeast, Central Schuylkill, Southeast, and Southwest are all fairly modern motors dating to the mid 1970s, perhaps even including variable speed drives and such. Getting back on topic, one of the pumping guys I met while working for PWD told me that at one time East Park pumping took power off the same circuit as the Pennsylvania Railroad. Whether this means they were taking 25hz power from Philadephia Electric Co somewhere before the PRR got it, or if they were buying directly from PRR I don't know, but it's still moderately interesting. I guess if PWD was taking power from the PRR that'd make a damn good business move as they'd be guaranteed a fairly level power load, especially with the incentives I saw PECO give us to keep our power load of off-peak times.

[Gilbert B Norman]

No question whatever, Mr. Dobner, electrical systems as well as many another thing is this life were BUILT TO LAST.

I'm not surprised to learn that Philadelphia Water is maintaining equipment with voltage and cycles that have long since been obsolesced elsewhere. I guess you can include PRR/PC/CR/AMTK as well.

I know that into the 60's, Consolidated Edison in New York was supplying DC house current; I remember (as a kid) how this co-op in New York in which the family had an apartment and how the Board was weeping and wailing (my Father was on it) that they "had to spend the money to get with the program'. I further understand that many a major building in Manhattan still has the original electrical systems with which they were built, but then I guess I had best defer to Mr. Nas et al around here on that point.

The days of Bill Gates waking up one day and deciding that he wants a new Operating System that will render W98, W2K, WXE instantly obsolete had not yet come to pass when the PRR electrification and PWC's pumping systems became operational..

[PRRTechFan]

Mr. Norman wrote:
...electrical systems as well as many another thing in this life were BUILT TO LAST.

...I couldn't agree more! The fact that the essentially original 75 year old PRR electrification system is still in operation today is a testament to the way things were built in the 20's, 30's, 40's and 50's...

...and it is equally accurate, I am afraid to say; that systems and equipment like that have not been built to last since then. And I am even more afraid to say that we will probably never see infrastructure built like a brick (insert appropriate word here) house ever again.

I know that into the 60's, Consolidated Edison in New York was supplying DC house current

Only into the 60's?? ConEd was still supplying DC in lower Manhattan as late as 1995; and there may still be DC facilities left today. Most of the elevators in downtown Manhattan buildings were original DC elevators, and they were not inexpensively adaptable to AC. To replace them would be terribly expensive, so ConEd maintained DC service into the 90's.

In the late 90's, ConEd announced that at some point, DC service would be phased (...electrical pun; sorry...) out. Someone got a bright idea and contacted a New York area power supply manufacturer and had them build a high current, intermittent-duty 250 volt DC power supply that would operate from 120/208 or 277/480 volt three-phase AC. This idea caught on, and many buildings that had otherwise serviceable DC elevators found an inexpensive way to run them from AC and drop their DC service. Whether all of ConEd's DC is gone now, I do not know...

[Nasadowsk]

A lot of DC elevators in NYC now run on solid state converters, I believe.

I've seen 70's vintage sewage pumping stations and they used wound rotor technology for variable speed. Very quiet but they generate a lot of heat and aren't as efficient as VFDs.

I'm guessing old 25hz stuff that's fixed speed is just standard AC motors. In the teens, 20's and 30's, they were still somewhat common (as were radios nd appliances for 25hz power).

Adapting a pure DC elevator to AC means replacing the motor. Not hard on geared traction (where the motor's more or less conventional), but not cheap - you have to hoist that thing up there and they're heavy. Sometimes they'll get changed durring a modernization, but for an elevator that sees little use and has an otherwise fine system? Yes, there is *one* firm in Inwood, NY who will still build you a pure (pure!) DC controller. They're entertainning to watch because the contactors are HUGE handbuilt affairs.

As for today's stuff not being built to last? I dunno, I've seen plenty of recent electric gear that's well built. The key is, as always, proper maintence. Plenty of old transformers and switchgear went to an early grave because of neglect....

[Jersey_Mike]

There is no way that the Lebanon Valley Branch of the Reading was
lesser used. The line was the main connection between the B. & O. and
the Western Maryland at Hagerstown via Harrisburg on one hand and
Allentown with connections to the L.V., C.N.J and the Lehigh and Hudson
River which further moved the cars to Maybrook for connection to the
New Haven for various points in New England.
There were major movements of coal, intermodal and general freight over
this line and it may well have been the busiest of any on the former
Reading.

That's not what I read in the History of the Reading Vol 2. It said that by the time of Conrail operations the Lebanon Valley Branch did not have that high of a traffic density and I would tend to believe that. Industry in the eastern PA region was collapsing, the bridge route into New Englande was also failing (notice the LHRR was completely abandonned a few years later). With the PC merger it was easier to send the freight via Selkirk (especially with the NH being absorbed into the PC in 1972). By the Conrail takeover, Rutherford yard had been virtually abandonned, I've seen the photos. I'm not saying that the line had no traffic, but it was nothing compared to what it became in the Conrail age.

Unfortunately, Amtrak's charges both for track use and for electricity to
Conrail were very high and Conrail rightfully determined that they had
their own lines parallel to Amtrak's lines over most of the electrified
territory and it was cheaper and more practical for Conrail to use their
own route(s) and run diesel power right through the entire area.
The above resulted in the retirement of a good fleet of electric locomotives
but it resulted in a better and more efficient operation of freight for
Conrail and that was what counted at the time and would today too.

Amtrak's rates was just one factor of many like I said initially and besides, you make it sound like Amtrak was gouging Conrail. As things stand today there is no place on the NEC for mainline freight. Amtrak rates reflected the premium that NEC slots demanded. Conrail had a shorter route, oil became cheap again, electrics has higher maintainence costs, catenary demanded maintainence and why deal with a power change in an age of deregulation when crews could go for more than 100 miles in a day and there was no other reason to stop in Enola yard.

I know of at least one single or two phase 25hz user in the Philadelphia area. Philadelphia Water Dept I believe still uses 25hz motors for their water pumping stations.

If I am not mistaken, large portions of the IRT subway system still uses 25Hz power due to all its substations and signaling being set up for that. Sadly I believe all the rotary converter stations have been converted to solid state.

http://www.nycsubway.org/tech/power/

[Nasadowsk]

Last I checked, the NYCTA was agressively dumping 25hz stuff. quite litterally, Amtrak and Septa are the lastbig users of the stuff _anywhere_. I'm guessing Septa will convert long before Amtrak ever does - all their equipment supports 60hz operation anyway.

[JoeG]

Mr Nasadowski--
I'm curious about what goes wrong with transformers. I'm no engineer, but I thought transformers had no moving parts, so I figured they would last indefinitely. Clearly I'm missing something. Can you enlighten me?

[JoeG]

In the sixties I briefly lived in an apartment in Manhattan that had DC electricity. What a pain! Many people who moved into that building fried lots of appliances their first day. My apartment had a special DC refrigerator; apparently regular ones require AC. I don't think air conditioners worked on DC either, but at the time I couldn't afford one. However, since the apartment had only 2 15 amp circuits, the air conditioning issue was probably academic.

[Ken W2KB]

Mr Nasadowski--
I'm curious about what goes wrong with transformers. I'm no engineer, but I thought transformers had no moving parts, so I figured they would last indefinitely. Clearly I'm missing something. Can you enlighten me?

The insulation on the interior wire windings eventually deteriorates for one thing. Also, while there are no moving parts as such, they do vibrate at the electrical frequency and surges in electical demand can cause some movement. The vibration and movement can cause wear at bends, fittings, bushings, etc. Large power transformers often last 40 or so years, but the idea is to analyse the liquid coolant (electrolyte) and gasses given off, vibration, etc. to take it out of service for repair or replacement before a catastrophic failure. A transformer explosion and fire can damage a lot of nearby equipment and of course any workers nearby would be in harm's way.