Super Chief and Broadway Limited: Amtrak vs. private versions

[SouthernRailway]

Since Amtrak ran two famous trains, the Super Chief and the Broadway Limited, which were allegedly luxurious back in the day, how did Amtrak’s version of each compare to the private versions? Did Amtrak immediately get rid of any special luxuries on them and run them like any other Amtrak train?

And has Amtrak ever run an all-sleeping car train in regular service?

Thanks.

[Gilbert B Norman]

"Not even the league".

"Been there, done that" both during the early '60's and "early Amtrak".

All Sleeper - never.

[Rockingham Racer]

I rode the Broadway Limited in 1976. At that time, there was still a bedroom lounge car in the consist for sleeping car passengers. No barber, etc.

[STrRedWolf]

This makes me wonder if on these 2-night lines, if they should run twice daily but in two different versions: A "commuter" style that's mostly coach, maybe a sleeper, and flex dining; and a "tourist" style that's mostly sleeper and regular cafe service.

I wonder if the demand in the past would have allowed for such an idea. I doubt we could pull it off on the mainly overnighters.

[SouthernRailway]

This makes me wonder if on these 2-night lines, if they should run twice daily but in two different versions: A "commuter" style that's mostly coach, maybe a sleeper, and flex dining; and a "tourist" style that's mostly sleeper and regular cafe service.

I wonder if the demand in the past would have allowed for such an idea. I doubt we could pull it off on the mainly overnighters.

2 trains a day could definitely work on at least some of the long-distance lines. See how well the Carolinian has done, as an add-on to Southeastern long-distance routes.

I'm not sure if Amtrak has enough sleeping car business to justify making a train mostly sleeping cars, but I still think that with better marketing and perhaps improved scheduling and maybe a broader range of offerings (adding things such as slumbercoaches and luxury sleeping accommodations), it could.

[CarterB]

I rode the Broadway both before and after Amtrak. No comparison. Pre Amtrak Broadway was still a luxury train, many various pullman sleeping accomodation types, including a Master Room with shower, double diner, lounge car, Obs car. After Amtrak a hodge podge of equipment from various roads, only roomettes and bedrooms, no compartments, drawing rooms or Master Room. No obs car, no double diner. Did have slumber coaches however.
Bring back the Slumbercoaches!!!!

[bdawe]

I'm not sure if Amtrak has enough sleeping car business to justify making a train mostly sleeping cars, but I still think that with better marketing and perhaps improved scheduling and maybe a broader range of offerings (adding things such as slumbercoaches and luxury sleeping accommodations), it could.

Even if they did, why would they though? We know the importance of frequency for generating ridership, and having trying to segregate coach and sleeper passengers would effectively nullify your enhanced frequency

[urr304]

The Broadway after Dec 1967 did not have the Master Bedroom equipped rear observation or all sleeper status. I seen it run past us at Strasburg [Paradise] in 1966 when it still was all sleeper with observation car. Then I seen it in Harrisburg in 1969 when a friend was getting on it for a return trip to Chicago; coaches, sleepers and diner and a lounge car. IIRC, it was The General's train set that was used after Dec.1967.

But even though it was deep in the PC era, there was still a measure of service pride as I witnessed the changing from a GG1 to an E-8/7 set. I never saw a man dive under the coupling and break down the steam line and stay there as the GG1 pulled away and the diesels came in, then make up the steam line while others were connecting the air and signal lines. Meanwhile two 'brass hats' were monitoring and checking their watches when finished, they were making sure Harrisburg wasn't going to be blamed for any delay to The Broadway!

Amtrak's first train re-equipped was The Broadway because the equipment was so deteriorated. I rode it in 1978, and we had a twin-unit diner, so I guess they improved it. It is too bad they did not keep it, I know they could not use the Fort Wayne line west of Alliance, they rerouted onto the former B&O from various points over a few years [Pittsburgh, Youngstown, New Castle]. Now if you are east of Pittsburgh and west of Philadelphia, you have to change trains in Pittsburgh to get the Capitol Ltd [that is when The Pennsylvanian resumes].

The Super Chief is a different story. I have no personal experience of the Super Chief while ATSF ran it. I do know that in 1973 they took the right of Amtrak to use the name "Super Chief" away because the service had deteriorated under Amtrak. I did ride the Southwest Ltd as it was called then also in 1978; the ride was better than the Broadway. We had a mixture of El Capitan and low level cars [the Super Chief too used to run jointly with the El Capitan], but the equipment needed more than the minimal maintenance they were receiving. Dining was very good, then Amtrak still allowed some individuality for menus, especially dinner.

AFAIK, some services such as barber, had been gone long before on both trains.

[SouthernRailway]

I'm not sure if Amtrak has enough sleeping car business to justify making a train mostly sleeping cars, but I still think that with better marketing and perhaps improved scheduling and maybe a broader range of offerings (adding things such as slumbercoaches and luxury sleeping accommodations), it could.

Even if they did, why would they though? We know the importance of frequency for generating ridership, and having trying to segregate coach and sleeper passengers would effectively nullify your enhanced frequency

MOSTLY sleeping cars. Not ONLY sleeping cars.

If Amtrak could fill a maximum 15-car (or whatever the maximum size is) with mostly sleeping cars, which I believe are more profitable than coaches, I hope that it would.

[John_Perkowski]

Not ATSF, but UP, the City of Los Angeles. Dome cars for coach and Pullman passengers. Lunch counter lounge for Coach, dome diner and dome lounge for Pullman.

Amtrak in the early years, 3/4 were nearly as sumptuous as ATSF 17/18. Then came superliner. Then came Amtrak mail and express, aka the Chief became the Grand Canyon.

Now, food so crappy it’s below mikkie dees... my days on tariff Amtrak are close to done.

[GWoodle]

Since Amtrak ran two famous trains, the Super Chief and the Broadway Limited, which were allegedly luxurious back in the day, how did Amtrak’s version of each compare to the private versions? Did Amtrak immediately get rid of any special luxuries on them and run them like any other Amtrak train?

And has Amtrak ever run an all-sleeping car train in regular service?

Thanks.

May be unfair to Amtrak since in the rainbow era they were running old E8/9 with 20-30 yr old cars. Amtrak found out the hard way not all the cars would work together. Took about 5 years to be repainted & repaired enough.
For some the best western LD trains came later with Superliners pulled by new F40 with HEP. You are fortunate for the Amtrak CZ to follow mostly the same CB&Q to DRGW route to Salt Lake City
before going on SP rails in Nevada to California. A rare event to use WP Feather River canyon as a detour.
In the east LD sometimes the mix of Amfleet coach with heritage diner & sleeper (need Slumbercoach) made for a fun Lake Shore Limited run to Boston & New York.

[Gilbert B Norman]

The 1966 airline strike, which cut available seat miles in half, was "The Last Hurrah" for overnight rail business travel. When the strike began, the Broadway Limited added about three Pullman lines to the then regular consists. When the thirty day strike ended, the business "took off" - and "uh, not exactly", on the rsils.

Here is a strike period consist I recorded, and which I reported to the Consists topic at Mr. Benton's Travel and Trip Reports Forum:

PRR #29 Broadway Limited, July 12, 1966 @ Harrisburg

GG-1 4916
Baggage Mail 6568 (heavyweight, roller bearings)
10-6 Park Rapids
4-4-2 Imperial Fields
10-6 Delaware Rapids
10-6 Catawissa Rapids
12Dx-4 HH Brackenridge
11BR Elberton (stainless)
5BR-Lng Harbor Cove
Diner 4620
Kitchen Dorm 4621
4-4-2 Imperial Ridge
10-6 Fishing Rapids
10-6 Comeaugh Rapids
2MR DR Obs Mountain View

Here's a link to the noted topic.

viewtopic.php?f=155&t=12524

[Greg Moore]

I'm not sure if Amtrak has enough sleeping car business to justify making a train mostly sleeping cars, but I still think that with better marketing and perhaps improved scheduling and maybe a broader range of offerings (adding things such as slumbercoaches and luxury sleeping accommodations), it could.

Even if they did, why would they though? We know the importance of frequency for generating ridership, and having trying to segregate coach and sleeper passengers would effectively nullify your enhanced frequency

MOSTLY sleeping cars. Not ONLY sleeping cars.

If Amtrak could fill a maximum 15-car (or whatever the maximum size is) with mostly sleeping cars, which I believe are more profitable than coaches, I hope that it would.

I've advocated for something like this for years, for example a "Southwest Scout" that is coach only. Run it 12 hours later.

Of course it comes down to "lack of equipment". But I think there's room for more coach only trains. There are some folks that are only going short distances, OR are cheap enough to ride coach overnight for a night or more.

[John Laubenheimer]

Immediately before and after "A-day", the Super Chief was very similar, except for the motive power (FP-45, F-45, F-45, steam car vs. 6 assorted F-7s). Service reductions came several years after "A-day".

The Broadway Limited was a different matter. This train lost a lot after the 1970 summer season. (baggage, 2 10-6s, 6 bedroom lounge, single diner, tavern lounge, 2-4 coaches.) The twin diners came back shortly after "A-day".
Also remember that the Broadway Limited and the Spirit of St. Louis were combined New York-Harrisburg and Washington-Harrisburg; shuffling was done at Harrisburg. This didn't last very long.