Why doesn't Amtrak have more stations around NYC?

[Jeff Smith]

One add: it's important to remember that Amtrak used to stop at Rye (1972), but switched that to New Rochelle on October 25, 1987.

[Rockingham Racer]

Interesting. Thanks for the update. The wonders of CTC allow all this to happen.

[Rockingham Racer]

One add: it's important to remember that Amtrak used to stop at Rye (1972), but switched that to New Rochelle on October 25, 1987.

Yes, I remember that, and the reason for it was [could be rumor here] that Graham Claytor lived there. Don't know if that's true or not, but New Rochelle seems to be a better place to have stop with crossovers available on both sides of the station. Plus: it's closer to the Northeast Bronx, and SOuthern Westchester, and still allows a transfer to Metro North if one wants to go to other points in the Bronx, or to GCT.

[MACTRAXX]

Why does Amtrak use only Penn Station (and sometimes Grand Central) in NYC, and not more stations?

Metro-North is building additional stations in the Bronx. Amtrak might not benefit much from those, but why doesn't Amtrak build one in Queens (to get traffic from Long Island) and maybe re-open the ancient station at 86th Street whenever it uses Grand Central?

From the Upper East Side and Long Island, LaGuardia is just as close as Penn Station, if not closer, so having more stations in those areas could help traffic, particularly on Boston-NY-DC routes where the alternative is flying.

SR:

This is your original post. I will reply to each paragraph:
1-Metro-North service to Penn Station will only be implemented when the LIRR ESA finally is in service allowing open train slots
into NYP vacated by the LIRR. An Amtrak station in Queens (Sunnyside or Astoria along the NYCR leading to the Hell Gate Bridge)
or any in the Park Avenue Tunnel leading to GCT is absolutely unnecessary for Amtrak.

2-Getting to LGA has always been a perennial problem - it amazes me that only in recent years that a rail link has been promoted.
Rail access to LGA - again the most logical being a N line extension from Astoria - should have been added decades ago.
With the 50th anniversary of the first rail link to a US airport passing (Cleveland's Red Line to Hopkins International Airport) NYC
-SHOULD- have taken the cue and added an extension with NYCT of a reasonable (and somewhat short) line to LGA.

3-There is a distinct clientele that will likely only fly between Washington-New York-Boston. They will pay top dollar for the
convenience of short flights between these cities even with the logistical problems of getting to and from each airport and
going through the hassles of TSA security. Getting more of these people on Acela trains as Amtrak has been successful with
is the key. The Midtown Manhattan location of NYP has always been good for rail ridership traditionally for now 109 years.

If I am missing your original point - then what is it ???
MACTRAXX

[Ridgefielder]

2-Getting to LGA has always been a perennial problem - it amazes me that only in recent years that a rail link has been promoted.
Rail access to LGA - again the most logical being a N line extension from Astoria - should have been added decades ago.
With the 50th anniversary of the first rail link to a US airport passing (Cleveland's Red Line to Hopkins International Airport) NYC
-SHOULD- have taken the cue and added an extension with NYCT of a reasonable (and somewhat short) line to LGA.

I'd like to add something here. We talk a lot about how XYZ station is at (or, in the case of Penn, actually above) design capacity. Well, the same is pretty much true of LGA.

It's one of the smallest, if not the smallest, major airports in the world. There are only two 7,000' runways, both of which end in water (anyone who's ever flown into LGA knows the eerie feeling that your plane is going to ditch in Long Island Sound when you're on final approach.) The terminal buildings are so cramped that certain aircraft types can't access certain gates. The place has no margin for error in terms of operations-- one thing going wrong can result in cascading delays.

That is a big part of the reason so much scorn is piled on the place-- it's utterly unpredictable. And that is also why plenty of people in the NY suburbs will still go past LGA to pick up a train at Penn.

[ExCon90]

Interesting. Thanks for the update. The wonders of CTC allow all this to happen.

Thanks indeed--I think I've got my head around it. I saw a head-end video awhile back (can't remember where) that looked like you couldn't get from 1 or 3 to the Hell Gate line any more and wondered about that--so I actually saw what I thought I saw. But getting MN to agree to add stops for Amtrak trains would still be a problem ...

[SouthernRailway]

If I am missing your original point - then what is it ???
MACTRAXX

My point is that if Amtrak had a station that is more convenient to Long Island than NY Penn is, then Amtrak would gain Boston-NY-DC ridership from people who fly from LaGuardia because LaGuardia is so convenient to Long Island.

If that's a false statement, please explain why. Yes, people could take a LIRR train all the way to NYP and then transfer to the Acela, but someone in Oyster Bay won't do that unless the person has to start or end in Manhattan due to work. The person in Oyster Bay will just fly from LGA because it's closer than NYP.

For some of your points:

1. A rail link to LGA has been proposed for years. Giuliani wanted one, as an extension of the N train, in the 1990s.

2. If anyone is just going to pay top dollar to fly instead of taking the train, it would be me. I have elite status on one airline and regularly fly paid first class. But I take Amtrak between NY and DC and Boston because it's convenient, uninterrupted time compared to flying. I don't think that there's a class of people who will fly no matter what. People travel how their employer tells them to, and in a way that will get them home to see their spouse and kids fastest.

[ThirdRail7]

My point is that if Amtrak had a station that is more convenient to Long Island than NY Penn is, then Amtrak would gain Boston-NY-DC ridership from people who fly from LaGuardia because LaGuardia is so convenient to Long Island.

If that's a false statement, please explain why.

It may or may not be a false statement but it is an unsubstantiated statement. You don't really know if what you're saying is true and I base that on your previous statement:

I'd be interested in seeing Amtrak's air-rail market share for NY-BOS and NY-WAS trips, segmented by locations of riders' offices and homes. I'm guessing that Amtrak has much lower market share among people who live in Long Island than people who live in Manhattan, since the total trip time, for people who live in Long Island, is much shorter if they fly. Adding an Amtrak station nearer Long Island than NYP would help improve this market share. At least I think.

You don't really have an idea of how many of the NYP riders are Manhattan residents, Eastern Long Island residents, Bronx residents, Staten Island residents, Brooklyn residents or Queens residents. Indeed, they may come from upstate New York. So, there may be a fair to large amount of south shore and north shore residents that do exactly this:

Yes, people could take a LIRR train all the way to NYP and then transfer to the Acela, but someone in Oyster Bay won't do that unless the person has to start or end in Manhattan due to work. The person in Oyster Bay will just fly from LGA because it's closer than NYP.

The person may not fly because they may prefer to leave their car at a train station closer to their house and not grapple with the traffic that surrounds the airport. As for Amtrak, as previously noted, there isn't much of a footprint. Sunnyside is the only place that you have a chance to stop a train and that requires real estate for a station and real estate for parking. Long Island City has seen quite the renaissance and parking is quite scarce. As such, public transportation is a better option from a station on eastern Long Island may be the best option until Sunnyside is decked and parking is added.

[SouthernRailway]

ThirdRail7, from my business trips between NY and DC and Boston, with coworkers and other business colleagues:

People seem to take the Acela if they live in Manhattan or live near a suburban station, such as Metropark.

People fly if they live in Brooklyn or Long Island.

This is my own anecdotal evidence from observations and discussions with people. It’s not scientific.

But it is consistent with my own experiences and discussions with people. And in my world- where getting there for a meeting and then getting home in the least amount of time possible, regardless of cost- is most important, it seems like a reasonable statement.

[jlr3266]

The Sunnyside Station was added to ESA at the request of the local LIC politician at the time. It does not actually serve trains to GCT as it is located west of the ESA revenue track approaches. Amtrak said it would never stop there (like Secaucus) because they did not want another stop like West Philadelphia. They are obligated to continue serving what was, at the time, a low use station.

Things in LIC have changed dramatically, so Sunnyside Station has gained some life. But for LIRR. Whether Amtrak would stop there still seems unlikely.

[east point]

A big problem with a Sunnyside station is that it might constrain total traffic on high density trains. with 90% of east of NYP passengers leaving train at NYP the lost seats for longer distance passengers east of NYP might be prohibitive. Cannot imagine a SSY passenger to WASH being told Standing room only to NYP?

[Roadgeek Adam]

I just don't see a Sunnyside station working. Even if they built it, it seems like a stop that would be destined for limited service. I also don't know an LIRR stop there would be strong either.

But I still fully believe, aside of Beacon, we have enough stops for Amtrak as a limited stop service to make the in the region based on demand.

[ThirdRail7]

ThirdRail7, from my business trips between NY and DC and Boston, with coworkers and other business colleagues:

People seem to take the Acela if they live in Manhattan or live near a suburban station, such as Metropark.

People fly if they live in Brooklyn or Long Island.

This is my own anecdotal evidence from observations and discussions with people. It’s not scientific.

But it is consistent with my own experiences and discussions with people. And in my world- where getting there for a meeting and then getting home in the least amount of time possible, regardless of cost- is most important, it seems like a reasonable statement.

Metropark is consistent with my statements. You need real estate. Do you know why Metropark thrives? It is because of the location and the capacity. Metropark is convenient to major traffic arteries and can accommodate 3800 cars. People come from all over NJ and even New York and utilize Metropark for this reason. They even bypass Newark Airport and the Amtrak Newark stop to utilize this station since it is typically cheaper to park your car.

You don't have an area that can do anything close to that along the current Amtrak route in NYC proper. You can't build a station that can reasonably accommodate parking on the Empire Connection or the Hell Gate line in Queens since as we've said, Amtrak's footprint is small. You would be hard-pressed to find a lot for parking which is a key component to this mi. If you did, it may be extremely expensive since the land would likely be expensive. You MAY be able to utilize space on the Hell Gate Line such as the planned Co-Op city stop or the planned Westchester Ave stop but you may also run into parking problems.

None of this will help people on Eastern Long Island. You must also look at any time that is added to accommodate new riders at some other stop may actually drive other passengers away since the trip time may increase.

It sounds like an expensive solution to a potentially nonexistent problem for a nominal gain.

[MACTRAXX]

The Sunnyside Station was added to ESA at the request of the local LIC politician at the time. It does not actually serve trains to GCT as it is located west of the ESA revenue track approaches. Amtrak said it would never stop there (like Secaucus) because they did not want another stop like West Philadelphia. They are obligated to continue serving what was, at the time, a low use station.

Things in LIC have changed dramatically, so Sunnyside Station has gained some life. But for LIRR. Whether Amtrak would stop there still seems unlikely.

jlr: A Sunnyside Station for the LIRR would have had more meaning had Amazon placed it's
second headquarters in LIC with the thousands of new jobs promised. There is a topic in the LIRR
Forum about that subject with some interesting discussion...

Even though Amtrak goes right through Secaucus Junction as noted there is no need for trains to
stop there with the frequent service offered by NJT. The secondary station you refer to is NORTH
Philadelphia which has evolved into a SEPTA Regional Rail station serving the Trenton and CHW
Lines with the withdrawal of virtually all Amtrak train services there. MACTRAXX

[Jeff Smith]

My point is that if Amtrak had a station that is more convenient to Long Island than NY Penn is, then Amtrak would gain Boston-NY-DC ridership from people who fly from LaGuardia because LaGuardia is so convenient to Long Island.

<SNIP>

I think that's a valid point, and why Amtrak as part of the Penn Access deal for MNRR is looking at Long Island.

I would think Jamaica, of course. Woodside would be a possibility. Any of the island terminals, though, would be operationally difficult.

Beyond that, Ronk, Patchogue, Montauk?

For LGA, I just don't see a tie-in. It's a the "smallest huge" airport in the US perhaps outside of Reagan.