Cardinal discussion

[Jersey_Mike]

Today at 30th St I saw that The cardinal / Regional combination train (51/131) were "both" running 65 minutes late. The announcements which were being made were rather confusing and it seemed that they were assuming that nobody wanted to ride 131 (well, my train 153 was arriving at the same time) as the announcements focused on passengers for the cardinal.

Once on the platform, they decided to platform 51/131 and 153 across from eachother, the platform signs only advertised 51, not 131. When 51/131 pulled in, the cardinal cars were first, followed by a small number of regional cars and the cafe in the middle. When I was getting on 153 a passenger came up to me asking about 131...I pointed to the Cardinal combo just as it was pulling out and the passenger was noticeably pissed off.

Aside from the obvious confusion this combo train seems to be generating it also appears that Amtrak is allowing a late Cardinal to also delay the regional it is attached it. Is Amtrak paying a high price for its cost saving measure?

Also, it appears that this has now put the Cardinal's sleeper permanently on the head end of the train, but with the Cafe on the end to serve both the regional and the cardinal, doesn't that hinder first class meal service?

[The Metropolitan]

I caught the weekday version of this train 51/183 a few weeks ago, and it was slightly late as well. Are you sure the cafe was combined? On mine the Sleeper was the lead car, followed by the Amlounge, then the three A-II coaches for the Cardinal, Amcafe for 183, and then 4-5 coaches for 183's passengers.

The day I caught it, it was being pulled by an HHP-8 that seemed to be suffering a bit in trying to lug all this real estate behind it, as the train took up every bit of the Baltimore Penn Station platform. The rear car was practically back to the Calvert Street bridge.

...which may be part of the problem: not a late 51 making the regional late (both start from NYP). On Friday, when I caught 79 down to DC, 51/183 was running 90 minutes down. I never did see it see what it was being lugged by, but I'm somewhat guessing an HHP-8.

I'm curious if since combining the consists, they've ever tried this train with a pair of AEM-7's, or if the Keystone restoration has limited the availabilty of these motors to operate in tandem.

*EDIT* Regarding the display messages, I know the Solari Board at BAL had lines for both 51 and 183, but seem to recall the LED sign on the platform reading 183 for WASHINGTON (though I think these can accomodate dual line displays, as MARC trains show WASHINGTON MARC LOCAL on a stacked message. Audible announcements did refer to the arriving train as "Amtrak's combined trains 51 and 183 going all the way through to Chicago."

[jp1822]

There were 2 AEM7's double heading a 7 car train from NYP to Washington DC. Likely a deadhead move. But I find it hard to believe an electric motor can't be found for tri-weekly Cardinal to operate as a separate train on the NEC. I am sure operating efficiencies abound with a combined train. But should this train just revert back to being a Washington DC to Chicago run if this hassle continues - and perhaps some Superliners can be found once again? Sorry - I sound like a broken record with this train reverting back to Washington DC with Superliner equipment.

[jhdeasy]

This combination of The Cardinal with a regional train in either direction between NYP and WAS has caused a problem for the multiple PV owners in CIN ... because of the makeup of the consist, they can no longer run CIN to WAS or NYP on The Cardinal, or NYP/WAS to CIN on The Cardinal ... reason being a double switch move would be required at WAS to remove/add the PVs and the Regional cars.

At least we can still run PVs NYP/WAS to CHI, or CHI to NYP/WAS, on the head end of the consist.

[35dtmrs92]

I find it interesting that Trains 50 and 51, the Cardinal pass through several major Midwestern and Northeastern cities. Why, then does it operate three days a week? Would increasing service to daily be of any benefit to the area served by the train? I certainly would appreciate a more convenient way to get to Indianapolis to see my folks.

[dm84]

The Northeast portion is misleading. The Cardinal is receive only between NYP and Washington DC heading towards Chicago and discharge only between those cities in the other direction.

After leaving Washington, the next major city it serves is Cincinnati. The route between DC and Cincinnati is basically podunk. More service couldn't hurt, but it's not that imperative.

Amtrak should've expanded the Cardinal to daily operation after killing the Three Rivers, but they didn't, and it doesn't seem to be affecting things one way or another.

[ne plus ultra]

After leaving Washington, the next major city it serves is Cincinnati. The route between DC and Cincinnati is basically podunk. More service couldn't hurt, but it's not that imperative.

If you'd written "the next major city it stops in", I'd agree with you.

The Cincinnati stop is at about 3:00 am, and it's hard to see how it's serving Cincinnati at that hour.

The loads in Cincinnati bear me out. In 2006, it had similar boarding/alighting figures as those for Centralia, Illinois, which no one would argue is a major city. To the degree Cincinnati is a major city (and I'm with you there), Amtrak is simply not serving it.

Bottom line is that the Cardinal really ONLY serves DC, Indy and Chicago, and it doesn't even serve Indy that well. It's a slow DC to Chicago train, that serves just about everyone else on its route poorly. Well, unless you're trying to go to Charlottesville, I guess.

[ne plus ultra]

This is one reason I think any capital funds that became available would be well spent on the Chgo-Indy route (and possibly Chgo-Cincinnati). Knocking some hours out of the very slow trackage through here would make it possible for the Cardinal to leave Chicago at the current, reasonable hour, reach Indy at a convenient time, instead of its current, mildly inconvenient time, and reach Cincy at a mildly inconvenient hour, instead of the current "only if you've got no other option" schedule.

14,000 boardings/alightings in Cincy isn't bad considering the schedule, and makes me think that an 11:00 stop there might be well patronized. St. Paul draws in 130,000 with a schedule that is not particularly convenient, and with similar regional connections (meaning Milwaukee is its closest natural neighbor of any decent size, like Indy for Cincy, and Chicago is just down the road.)

I'd love to see the Cardinal optimized around departures in DC, Cincy, Indy and Chicago. Let's the WB Cardinal ran 5 hours later, and they knocked 3.5 hours out of the 10 hour trip from Cincy to Chgo (some of that is padding, so it's not inconceivable.) You'd lose some patronage in WV, where you'd push your Charleston and Huntington departures to the wee hours. But neither of those two burghs offers even as many riders as Cincinnati does under the current miserable schedule. The whole state of WV has only 44,000 on-offs. Surely, optimizing for the Cincy-Indy-Chicago market makes more sense.

[jp1822]

Best would be if we could have passenger friendly times at Chiacago, Indy, Cincy and Washington DC. Amtrak could really do a lot with this train, but it seems to be stuck in status quo - like the Pennsylvanian.

As I've said before, I'd like to see this train revert back to Superliner equipment (west of Washington DC), to freeup the Cardinal's two Viewliners in order to resurrect overnight sleeper car service on the NEC (and they could rotate in/out of Silver Service trains at Washington DC for servicingin Florida). Let alone, I think the Superliners are superior to the AMfleet II cars - and the train could at least operate with a Sightseer Lounge or Diner for better viewing of the scenery along the route - except trying to view the scenery through the Amfleet slit windows. Across the platform change at Washington DC for this train, would not be the end of the world, and they could still bill it as a through train etc. Amtrak could even make use of the Trans Dorm/Sleeper to have Superliners tacked on at Washington DC (Amfleets continue to/from NYC on the corridor). Bad enough this train seems to be an orphan once it gets to Washington DC (eastbound at least) - waiting for the next Regional train to be hooked onto.

I've even suggested, you could continue the Cardinal on up to Boston. But again, schedule changes would have to take place.

[Greg Moore]

I find it interesting that Trains 50 and 51, the Cardinal pass through several major Midwestern and Northeastern cities. Why, then does it operate three days a week? Would increasing service to daily be of any benefit to the area served by the train? I certainly would appreciate a more convenient way to get to Indianapolis to see my folks.

I believe because there are only two train sets dedicated to it and that due to turn-around times and servicing, 7 day a week service would require 3 trainsets.

(or more accurately running it on any 2 contigous days requires 3 train sets.)

(And while using superliner equipment might free up 2 viewliners, how about we simply get Congress to BUY us more viewliners. Another 50 to start would help.)

[John_Perkowski]

(And while using superliner equipment might free up 2 viewliners, how about we simply get Congress to BUY us more viewliners. Another 50 to start would help.)

Mr Moore:

http://www.house.gov/writerep

http://www.senate.gov

218+51+1. Help Amtrak get a capital procurement appropriation.

[The Metropolitan]

Has the combination been split again, at least on #50?

[David Benton]

Ha! Looks like they never forsaw the cardinal running early .

[Robert Paniagua]

Where 183 start from, Boston, nah probably NYP, if it were boston, it would have to be too early, since the only way a Bostonian can get to/from 51/50 would have to be the same way as 63/64 to/from TWO, that is Amtrak 67/66 out of BOS-NYP.

[The_Rockaway_Kid]

In addition, Mr. P., the Cardinal needs to be in NYP for Sunnyside servicing. I highly doubt there'd be two equipment moves.