• New NY Dual Mode Discussion

  • This forum will be for issues that don't belong specifically to one NYC area transit agency, but several. For instance, intra-MTA proposals or MTA-wide issues, which may involve both Metro-North Railroad (MNRR) and the Long Island Railroad (LIRR). Other intra-agency examples: through running such as the now discontinued MNRR-NJT Meadowlands special. Topics which only concern one operating agency should remain in their respective forums.
This forum will be for issues that don't belong specifically to one NYC area transit agency, but several. For instance, intra-MTA proposals or MTA-wide issues, which may involve both Metro-North Railroad (MNRR) and the Long Island Railroad (LIRR). Other intra-agency examples: through running such as the now discontinued MNRR-NJT Meadowlands special. Topics which only concern one operating agency should remain in their respective forums.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, nomis, FL9AC, Jeff Smith

  by ALBCastaway1993
 
I have been riding trains on the Empire Corridor since I was about 7 years old and spent a good chunk of my life until this point volunteering/working in the local tourist/Class 1 freight scene in order to eventually operate trains on this corridor. The current buzz around the state owned P32s is that they are old and tired and need to be replaced. Given the current hype around the Siemens Charger everyone thinks they are a shoe in for a platform to base the next generation of dual mode equipment on. However, if you read the RFI Metro North did in 2013 you will find that the weight estimates for a dual mode Charger are significantly higher than New York State's specifications:

http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Documents ... roval.docx

What does the forum think of this?

Personally, if I were in charge I'd go with an F125 based platform but use the new 1010j Prime Mover developed for the SD70ACe-T4
  by David Benton
 
If weights a problem , i would think the new Hitachi's 800(?) series fit the bill. Plus they have all possible power combinations covered,
  by njtmnrrbuff
 
Right now, there is a joint order for dual mode power for NY State owned Amtrak operations, MNR, and LIRR. I agree that the P32AC-DMs are worn out. Not sure if they received the best maintenance, at least the Amtrak ones. They are almost 25 years old.
  by bostontrainguy
 
This is probably a great place to eventually use battery powered locomotives as they are tested and developed. Seems a perfect solution.
  by ALBCastaway1993
 
bostontrainguy wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:01 am This is probably a great place to eventually use battery powered locomotives as they are tested and developed. Seems a perfect solution.
If you read the RFI they want battery storage on the proposed engines....it's often a factor in why the weigh estimates are so high.

As for them being tested and developed that is a joke, name one railroad that has a sizable fleet of battery locomotives. I doubt one could run between Rensselaer and New York City for a round trip on a charge, let alone the several most of the current units run in one day.
  by bostontrainguy
 
ALBCastaway1993 wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:03 am
bostontrainguy wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:01 am This is probably a great place to eventually use battery powered locomotives as they are tested and developed. Seems a perfect solution.
As for them being tested and developed that is a joke, name one railroad that has a sizable fleet of battery locomotives. I doubt one could run between Rensselaer and New York City for a round trip on a charge, let alone the several most of the current units run in one day.
No one substantially has them yet but BN is very high on the concept and will be testing in a few months. As far as what is actually needed, it's a ridiculously short stretch of track from a Penn Station platform to just outside NYP at the very southern end of the West Side Connection. The diesel can run almost the entire way and a battery powered engine can be charging all the way from Albany-Ren and then take over for the final 3/4 mile. It gets recharged all the way back and plugged in at Albany-Ren when needed. Pretty simple.
  by BandA
 
Which weighs more, a battery to pull a train a mile or a pantograph + voltage converter? Also with a giant battery you have to worry about a lithium fire.
  by rcthompson04
 
BandA wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:22 pm Which weighs more, a battery to pull a train a mile or a pantograph + voltage converter? Also with a giant battery you have to worry about a lithium fire.
It makes far more sense to me to have a pantograph and voltage converter on a diesel than a battery. You could use such equipment on the overnight Regionals and Pennsylvanians as well. Using the batteries on those runs would require having chargers at several other locations.
  by David Benton
 
The battery would be charged by the diesel engine , the pantograph if available, and any regenerative braking. Basically a train version of a Toyota Prius. I would agree though that it would seem to have little application in the USA, outside commuter runs.
  by Backshophoss
 
This is a 4-way order,Amtrak,MN,CnnnDOT,and LIRR. the weight problem is the Park Ave viaduct into GCT due to the "energy storage module" needed to jump 3rd rail gaps
in GCT and NY Penn all the way to Sunnyside Yard. Battery power will not last long with HEP demand from the consist
Possible cure ,,A-1-A trucks to spread the weight out.
  by MattW
 
Why are we trying so hard to reinvent the wheel? Third rail is in place, it doesn't have to be recharged. and doesn't significantly add weight to the locomotive. Sure, you need the shoe and DC switchgear, but in exchange for running everything continuously, it's a pretty big bargain.
  by Backshophoss
 
The FL-9 got access to GCT by using the A-1-A truck to spread the weight of the oversized High Voltage Cabinet MG set ,Steam generator, and Full water tanks for the steam generator.
  by west point
 
A diesel that has a under running / overrunning shoe appears to be the best. Unfortunately the third rail's lower voltage limits the power that can be applied to the traction motors. The higher HP of the current diesel electrics use a higher voltage to get full HP to the traction motors. A pan on the top of these locos to power the new locos thru the puzzle switches at NYP. There would need to be a fail safe method to prevent the PAN from contacting the NYP 12Kv AC CAT.
  by Backshophoss
 
CR,then MN did away with the overhead 3rd rail over the GCT puzzle switches,too many of the "tiny" pans were ripped off the FL-9's and the S -motor's roofs.
The battery/capacitors/DC link unit weight is the hang up.
NY Penn might have had overhead 3rd rails, long removed due to the catenary being installed,DD-1's rarely died on the 3rd gaps there,but used reacher flats with 3rd rail shoes for freight service.
  by Tadman
 
Every time the discussion goes to "We can barely fit all this heavy stuff into one unit" I keep thinking "okay, let's have two!" wherein a diesel and a third rail unit are semi-permanently coupled and one operates but both can control, and they are double ended so no more turns/wyes.

But then we have the "we can't/it won't/never works/tried that in 1984" discussion and come back to the same place.

I assume in two years after plenty of Louis T Klauder studies for $5m, we're going to order a dual-mode diesel/third rail charger and have the same problems as usual.