Railroad Forums 

  • Model RR Clubs with DCC or Analog/DCC

  • Discussion related to everything about model railroading, from layout design and planning, to reviews of related model tools and equipment. Discussion includes O, S, HO, N and Z, as well as narrow gauge topics. Also includes discussion of traditional "toy train" and "collector" topics such as Lionel, American Flyer, Marx, and others. Also includes discussion of outdoor garden railways and live steamers.
Discussion related to everything about model railroading, from layout design and planning, to reviews of related model tools and equipment. Discussion includes O, S, HO, N and Z, as well as narrow gauge topics. Also includes discussion of traditional "toy train" and "collector" topics such as Lionel, American Flyer, Marx, and others. Also includes discussion of outdoor garden railways and live steamers.

Moderators: 3rdrail, stilson4283, Otto Vondrak

 #61816  by zablocki22
 
For those of you who belong to a model RR club, do you have a setup where you can switch from Analog to DCC for operating a particular session or you had a meeting, voted and decided to go straight with DCC?

If you have the ability to operate both ways, could you basically explain how you electronically went about it?

Did members find it as a hardship to invest in decoders?

Just wondering because we are having at times some "heated" discussions at our club.

Thanks for any input,

Vincent Zablocki
 #61874  by Paul Cutler III
 
zablocki22 wrote:
For those of you who belong to a model RR club, do you have a setup where you can switch from Analog to DCC for operating a particular session or you had a meeting, voted and decided to go straight with DCC?
I belong to the South Shore Model Railway Club in Hingham, MA, and we use the Digitrax Chief DCC system. We are an old HO club, est. 1938, and we had been in the same location in Weymouth from 1953 to 1998 when we moved to our new location in Hingham. If we had not moved, we would probably not gone with DCC. The old layout did run well, and we knew all the tricks, so it probably woudn't have happened.

However, with the move came the opportunity to build and all new layout with all new electronics, but feelings for the old analog system remained high amongst the members while others wanted to embrace the new DCC system.

So, the membership established a "DCC Task Group" to fully explore the three major systems of the day: Digitrax, SystemOne, and Lenz. Costs, features, user interfaces, customer support, etc., were all examined. In fact, we had Lenz and SystemOne come to the club and give a demonstration of their products, and they impressed many.

The DCC task group determined the following:
1). The cost of DCC vs. DC was about the same due to the high cost of wiring a vary large layout for 10 or more cabs. Each cab would cost around $500 to build (50 block toggles, lights, wire, throttles, power supplys, etc. add up quickly) and consume many man hours of labor.

2). That Digitrax offered the most bang for the buck, and the rumors were swirling about a new radio throttle, larger throttles, a signal system, etc. (all of which have come true).

3). The Digitrax system architecture was based on LAN technology, which appealed to the guys in the club who run office networks.

4). That the NMRA standards for DCC meant that a large investement of decoders in any one system would not be wasted if our company of choice went out of business.

5). That having both analog DC and DCC on the layout would lead to doubling the cost of the layout's electronics for not much gain.

The DCC Task Group then presented their findings to the membership in a 12 page report, and recommended that we purchase the Digitrax Chief system. During a regularly scheduled business meeting of the members, the motion to go with DCC was passed with a vote of around 35 yes, 5 no, and 5 abstentions.
If you have the ability to operate both ways, could you basically explain how you electronically went about it?
With all the above being said, we will have a section of layout that will be DC analog or DCC. We plan on having a working trolley line on our layout, and it will be DC live overhead or DCC two-rail. The plan is to have either a relay and a couple switches, or a large toggle somewhere. The trick is to make sure you can't accidently switch from one to the other.
Did members find it as a hardship to invest in decoders?
We pointed out that decoders are getting cheaper all the time, and that they don't have to invest in decoders if they don't want to. Besides, the club itself owns 20-odd engines, and all of these would be decodered so no one has to be left out of running with DCC.
Just wondering because we are having at times some "heated" discussions at our club.
One of the other things that helped ease the transition was that a few of the DCC folks who know a thing or two about electronics hold a monthly DCC installation clinic at the club. One of the guys has a large stockpile of decoders, bulbs and resistors that he brings in once a month. Members then can buy what they need from him.

 #61878  by zablocki22
 
Thank you Mr. Cutler for your response.

One of the complaints from various members about the DCC way is "I have over 'X' locomotives and I'm not going to put decoders in them..."

That is why the thought of both methods is an idea.

VZ

 #61937  by dti406
 
Our club in Alaska had the old Onboard System before DCC came about, and I just set up two locos to have the Onboard Decoders, plus remember they did not have a lot of channels to pick from so it did not behoove somebody to have a lot of locos with decoders. We also had a branch line that was analog so the members did not have to put decoders in their locos if they did not want to.

We did convert to Digitrax prior to my leaving the state and I had a number of locos with decoders which I am going to use on my home layout. And they can be used on straight DC without using the DCC system. Also one loco can be run without a decoder on the layout.

It was a pure joy dispatching on a layout with DCC as we did not worry about polarity and all we had to watch out for was a cornfield meet which can happen with DCC.

Rick

 #61960  by Otto Vondrak
 
At the RIT Model Railroad Club, we switched from analog DC to DCC about four years ago. There was heated debate as well.
Quote:
If you have the ability to operate both ways, could you basically explain how you electronically went about it?
Most systems allow for operation of ONE analog DC locomotive on the layout- somehow, that engine is address "0000" or something, and then it can operate in the DCC environment. I'm not sure how much success we have had with that at RITMRC, or if we even tried. The short answer: yes, it's possible; no, I haven't seen it personally.
Quote:
Did members find it as a hardship to invest in decoders?
This was one of the issues brought up in the debate against the switch to DCC. There were some members that had large investments in analog DC locomotives, and the prospect of converting over whole fleets was astronomical, to say the least. However, we realized if we wanted our operations to grow (especially with the addition of two new staging yards), we needed to convert to DCC. It is true, the cost of DCC decoders is coming down all the time. But if you try to convert your fleet all at once, you'll go broke. You need to consider a few engines at a time... and then slowly transition in your DC fleet... and then sell off what you really wont use.
Quote:
Just wondering because we are having at times some "heated" discussions at our club.
When you convert to DCC, you lose the "gee-whiz" factor. In other words, we used to go to local train shows, buy some old Varney or Penn Line loco, set it on the tracks, and try to make her run. Or maybe someoe had their prize Tyco or AHM from when they were a kid... yeah, it was pretty cool to be able to try out your favorite tired old engine on the club layout... but in the end, the transition to DCC "forced" many of our members to invest in higher quality equipment, and overall, improved operation of the layout- which in turn leads to more enjoyment and less repairwork and frustration.

Go DCC. But go easy.

-otto-
RIT Model Railroad Club - www.ritmrc.org
 #62111  by John_Henry
 
Vince,

My club dabbled with On Board a decade ago. The system was so bad that it ruined many guys opinions on ever going back to a command control system.

However, we are now converting our common-rail DC layout to run both DC and DCC. For now, we are keeping both. We simply wired multiple cabs to each block, with one cab being DCC. Of course, since we are common rail we had to make sure we used appropriate isolated gear.

As in your club, we have guys of mixed opinions.

I think pure DCC is the only way to go at this point, but I am keeping the desire to a simmer -- along with the other proponents. We are about to acquire our own building and start a new layout. It is my intention to try to convince the guys - nicely - that we need to go pure DCC.

It is a hot topic issue, but in our case our club owns a lot of engines and cars. We do not need member's equipment, so if we go all DCC we can handle it.

I got a little loud trying to convince them to even try DCC. My belief is that a club should pool the collective talents, energy and funds of its members and push the envelope. But that's just me. We have some guys who still think Bowser circa 1960 was the end-all be-all of great models.

In the end, I could have been diplomatic, but they did decided to join the modern era!

John


[quote]For those of you who belong to a model RR club, do you have a setup where you can switch from Analog to DCC for operating a particular session or you had a meeting, voted and decided to go straight with DCC?

If you have the ability to operate both ways, could you basically explain how you electronically went about it?

Did members find it as a hardship to invest in decoders?

Just wondering because we are having at times some "heated" discussions at our club.

Thanks for any input,

Vincent Zablocki[/quote]
 #62192  by retired grouch
 
Our club in So. Jersey did it this way:

We had acquired additional space adjacent to existing layout.
Several members had DCC locos and were pushing for conversion.

The DCC advocates did their homework and came up with $$$ figures for wiring new portion in analog dc with block control/multi cabs to match existing, and for new DCC. DCC was a little more expensive, but being the wave of the future it was cheaper in the long run, i.e. most electrical switches for blocks and long wiring runs from control panels would be unnecessary in future, why expend funds. Club voted for DCC to be done in stages.

Gradual changeover - Entire westbound main line was converted to DCC, eastbound remained analog. That way you could still run your Bowser/AHM/early Atherns, and the DCC guys ran their Broadway Limited Inc., Genesis, etc. motive power. (And the sound helped to convince some reluctant members.)

Complete changeover coming within weeks (hopefully, we"ll get all bugs out by public show in late Nov.) And CLUB IS SUPPLYING EVERY MEMBER WITH 2 DECODERS. And the DCC advocates are helping with installation and programing.

Wasn't without discord. This writer was extremely upset when entire westbound was changed over earlier then agreed upon.

Recommendations:
Go at moderate speed. Keep DCC enthusiasts from running amok. Have club purchase and supply every member with at least two decoders.

Retired grouch