Atlas L&H C-420

[jmchitvt]

Look at the Atlas HO Phase I C-420 due out May 2007, appropriately L&H 21 & 22!!

It's all in full color at the Atlas web site.

Guess I never knew "we" were the first with this locomotive model.

Joseph, in the foothills of the Green Mountain National Forest

[Marty Feldner]

Indeed, L&HR 21 and 22 were the first C-420's built, in June 1963 (there was no demonstrator). In fact, Alco's Operating Manual for the C-420's has a picture of one of the L&HR lcomotives on its cover.

Of the other paint schemes to be offered by Atlas, the CR 2072 was L&H 21, and the only ex-L&H to get the full CR Blue 'dip job' paint. And, the Arkansas & Missouri 50 is the ex-22.

This first offering is Phase I; if Atlas follows past practice, look for Phase II and Phase III to follow (the remainder of the L&HR units were Pase III).

[metman499]

I think the Atlas fuel tanks are too big for the L&HR as delivered. I believe they were later retrofitted with larger tanks so these models are not quite appropriate for the early years of their operation.

[Marty Feldner]

Indeed, the 21 and 22 were delivered with the smaller 2000 gallon rectangular tank; they were also fitted with removable pilot snow plows (the only two so equipped). All subsequent C-420's were delivered with the 3100 gallon tank, as on the Atlas model.

21 was involved in an accident in 1966; damage was sufficient to send it back to Alco for rebuilding. At that time it was fitted with the 3100 gallon tank. The 22 retained its original smaller tank until it was replaced with the larger tank by the A&M.

The photo on the Atlas website is of a preproduction sample, but from the text it seems all Phase I versions will have the 3100 gallon tank.

Another discrepancy I see is the position of the horns; on the L&HR, they were mounted low on the roof, on the engineer's side (I believe this was due to door clearance problems at the Warwick shops).

[jmchitvt]

Looks like the "juices" are flowing on the L&H message board at last. Our moderator must be so pleased.

I can thank the D&H Yahoo board for alerting me to the Atlas announcement.

I bought the Lionel L&H C-420 model (of #22) when it was I believe a JC Penney exlusive catalog item and later got the Weaver L&H caboose to go with it (I know it's a steel carbody, but the lettering is great).

Question - in HO has there/is there a corresponding L&H caboose? Herald King, maybe others, had/have decals. But is there a decorated model out there other than the custom order route?

I've found the response to my original post very informative as I missed so much of this as I was in the service then, and then moving to VT.

Thanks to all.

Joseph

[GOLDEN-ARM]

This has been in the scale model thread, for a while now. Heres Atlas' link, to the models: http://www.atlasrr.com/HOLoco/hoc420.htm
If you looked around HERE, at RR.Net, you woulda seen it sooner....... http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=31757 I ordered a dozen, for another road, with LEHIGH in the title...........

[metman499]

For a L&HR hack try Bethlehem Car Works. Their Sparrows Point line makes a conversion kit to do a wood or plywood car using a P2K caboose as the base. http://www.bethlehemcarworks.com/Produc ... index.html

[Marty Feldner]

Or, for the 10 class cabooses, try Al Seebach's Old & Weary Car Shop:

http://www.theoldandwearycarshop.com/BCWCaboose.html

Note that the picture (on either site) shows incorrect Andrews trucks; the right truck is a Barber-Bettendorf Swing-motion, also available from BCW.

[David]

Looks like the "juices" are flowing on the L&H message board at last. Our moderator must be so pleased.

Yes, very pleased--LOL--Now if we can "jump start" the L&NE Forum, I would be double pleased!--Thanks all.

[SooLineRob]

Question for loco experts...

Besides the fuel tanks, what are the visual differences between the C420 Ph1 and subsequent phases? I read somewhere that the C420's were noted as being phase 1a, 1b, and 2. I noted Marty I.D.'ed the L&HR units as Ph1, 2, and 3. The only exterior spotting feature I can see is the lack of a verticle air intake grill near the rear 1/3 of the carbody on the Ph1's.

Could the Atlas HO model of 21 & 22 be reasonably used for modeling 23-29? Change fuel tanks and add air grills...?

[Marty Feldner]

Hi Rob...

The whole issue of 'phases' can be a quagmire; it is an invention of the hobby, not the manufacturers. I'm pretty sure the concept can be traced to the periodical "Extra 2200 South", and is used mainly to distinguish differences over the production life of a particular model. Differences that can be identified by so-called 'spotting features'.

That said, "Extra 2200 South" covered the C-420's in its Oct-Nov-Dec 1977 issue (it was a quarterly). Their detailed production roster was broken down into two 'phases', I and II. The main diference was in how the long hood handrails were mounted; for phase I, the stanchions were mounted ON the walkway, with readily seen holes (one under each stanchion) for access to the mounting bolts. On phase II, the stanchions were bolted to the sides of the side sills.

Within phase I, Extra 2200 South identified a minor change to the carbody air intake (the screen just behind the cab) within phase I production. Somewhere along the line, someone in the hobby decided that this change was enough to warrant a sub-phase; hence phase Ia and Ib.

In April 1987, Railroad Model Craftsman magazine ran an extensive review of the then-new HO MRC Alco C-420 (the author's name escapes me- the issue is buried here somewhere). Using the same detail differences, this reviewer decided on three distinct phases, I, II, and III (corresponding to the previous Ia, Ib, and II).

I referred to the 'RMC' phases.

Fuel tank capacity was not a phase spotting feature; it was a customer option, so any size could be seen under any phase. (Capacities were 2000, 2400, 2600, 2700, and 3100 gallons; for steam generator equipped units, the tanks were split between fuel and water. Capacities used under C-420's were 1000 Fuel/ 1900 Water, and 1600 Fuel/ 1500 Water gallons).

For even more confusion, L&HR 21 and 22 were built with a never-repeated pre-production engine air inlet (that's the one at the rear, just ahead of the radiators). It was a single opening; the production version was a pair of openings, mounted slightly higher. When the 21 went back to Alco for its post-wreck rebuild, it came back with not just the larger fuel tank, but the later version of the intake.

21 and 22 were both phase I (later known as phase Ia, or just phase I by RMC); the remainder were phase II (Extra 2200 South; phase III per RMC).

Now that everyone is thoroughly confused...

[SooLineRob]

Thanks for the reply Marty, I knew you'd be the man!!!

I was aware of the fuel tank options and the handrail stanchion locations, and noticed the air inlets. I didn't know the 21 & 22 were unique as being the only units produced that way... your knowledge of the L&H never ceases to amaze me.

And I echo your sentiments regarding "Phases". While researching a GP38 project I was doing, I viewed many photos of that model and tried to correlate build dates with visual spotting features of the different "phases". I found "oil bath" air filters built AFTER paper filters, Dash 2 sight glasses WITH oil bath filters, and so on. Nevertheless, I am extremely pleased that Atlas produced this model in "our" roadname and hope they follow up with a "phase whatever" of 23-29. I was lucky enough to grab several of the L&H RS3's they did in 2000-2001, and the new L&H C420 in factory paint is a much anticipated model that I'm glad to have. I just hope the paint colors are fairly close, since I already have MRC/Lima/Rivarossi custom painted 24, 25, 27, and 29. If Atlas keeps releasing new models and roadnames in 2007 at the pace they're going, I can see budgetary issues between my railroad and the Chevelle SS next summer!

[L&HR C&S]

>For even more confusion, L&HR 21 and 22 were built with a never->repeated pre-production engine air inlet (that's the one at the rear, just >ahead of the radiators). It was a single opening; the production version >was a pair of openings, mounted slightly higher. When the 21 went back >to Alco for its post-wreck rebuild, it came back with not just the larger >fuel tank, but the later version of the intake

Marty,
After checking a few pics of 21 and 22 shortly after they where delivered, it seems that they where both delivered with the two narrow intake screens and that the single, large screen came later.

L&HR 21 and 22 had a bunch of differences when compared to 23 -29;
the items already mentioned (small fuel tanks, phase 1 handrails, air intake screens). Other differences where mu receptical mounting, different drop steps, different sand filler hatches on the rear of the unit.
The rear end also had the class lights mounted on small doors that curved around the rear of the hood. later units did not have these doors. The grab irons for roof access at the rear of the units where a diffrent type, and behind the cab on the firemans side there was an additional set of grab irons for roof top acess.

Bill