1962 west end questions

[BR&P]

Cleaning the garage isn't always a bad thing. I came across an LV Callers book from late 1962, showing westbound departures from Manchester. Some runs are fairly self-explanatory: MB1/BM2, P&L Pickup, etc. But a couple of them are not clear.

For instance, most days there were 2 trains designated as "Farm Extra". One was usually called at 10AM although times vary from 0745 to early afternoon. The second was usually about 1PM although again times varied. These apparently were full sized trains as the power was usually 3 or 4 units. What were these?

The other was FFW1. which was usually called for about 0530 or 0630. Quite often, instead of the conductor's regularly assigned caboose, the book says "Thru cab" (without a number). I believe 1962 was well before general pooling of cabooses and this is borne out by the book - in most cases you see the same caboose with the same conductor for the whole 3 months the book covers. But some days FFW1 was different. Any idea why? What was FFW1 anyway - the run-through with NKP perhaps?

[lvrr325]

Per Flags Diamonds & Statues V9 #2, FFW-1 (Fast Frieght West) is the WB counterpart to BJ-2, was called JB-1 prior to using this symbol, and was the Nickle Plate run-through train.

However the magazine says this run through went into effect 9/27/63, well after your book. The typical Manchester arrival times were around 5 am to 7 am, though. Could be it was the NKP interchange train, just that it was prior to the run-through power arrangement.

Too bad there's no caboose numbers recorded, there's not a lot of data I've run across about pooled cabooses on the LV - just a couple odd slides of a UP car in Sayre -

The article in this book deals with the pool trains, so there's no info on the Farm extra. That said, could it be just an extra train to Tifft Yard and the name a reference to the farm that that yard once was?

[CAR_FLOATER]

lvrr325 -

I was under the impression the counterpart to FFW-1 was BNE-2, and it's predecessor was NYB-1 (pre-1940). I don't have that issue of FD&S, so I can't refer to it.

CF

[lvrr325]

That might make more sense, since the callers book shows that the FFW-1 symbol was in use before 1963 - I am by no means any expert on LV train symbols, I just remembered I'd read that train symbol somewhere recently, found the article and quoted it above.

The article was reprinted from a NKPT&HS magazine, also, Winter 1987 issue.

What's interesting to me is that even in 1964 one could apparently chase and pass trains on the LV main, the article includes several photos by J.J. Young of the same train/power set at Alpine, Caywood and Sayre. I'm sure there are others there simply wasn't room to use, also. This despite having to use two-lane roads through towns and intersections. (now if I just had a time machine built into say, a '59 Pontiac....)

[TB Diamond]

lvrr325: Do not know for 100%, but am sure that you are correct about the "Farm Extra". Noticted what I feel was this train at Wadsworth Jct. back in April, 1968. The train consisted of two RS2/3 units, about 35-40 cars and a cab. In addition, train symbol FFW-1 was in use as early as 1954, as was BNE-2. Reference the J.J. Young photos in the magazine you mentioned: Mr. Young most certainly had a flying trip following a LVRR train Caywood-Sayre in 1964. However, there was less traffic back in those days and the roads, at least between Odessa and Sayre, were about the same then as they are now. The most difficult part of his trip would have been Caywood over to Odessa. Back then most of that route would have been on dirt roads unless he somehow managed to catch the train using the state highways. Or did you mean Cayuta and not Caywood?

Do not know when pooled caboose agreements went in on the LVRR, but believe that it was about the mid-1960s. The green Lehigh Valley Railroad cabooses were, I was told, orgionally assigned to the Apollo trains for run through service.

Reference the Union Pacific caboose in Sayre: I photographed a UP caboose on the rear of AP-2 in Batavia on June 12, 1975. One of the few foreign cabs I ever noticed on the LV.

[lvrr325]

Don't know what I was thinking when I typed that up, the shots in this mag are as follows:

Coming & going at Alpine - coming at Odessa - and after the power cut off at Sayre. That should be a pretty straight shot on the state roads.

Those state roads were there even in the 30's, they're on one of my LV maps, although who knows how wide they were at that time.

For fun I looked in my '62 LV employee timetable and it notes speeds as follows:

Between Newark & Buffalo - Passenger, 60 MPH, trains FFW-1, FFW-3, BJ-2 60 MPH, other freight 50 MPH. Either Mr. Young had a car he could really flog to get back ahead of this guy, there were speed restrictions in effect, or he had a scale test car on the rearend (limits speed to 35 MPH). Even by the '68 timetable the few speed restrictions are 40 MPH Seneca-Geneva and Van Etten Jct-State Line (plus one through Geneva Jct. interlocking).

I suppose if the traffic was light, you had your shot locations picked out in advance, and knew the roads pretty well it might be possible, you'd have to grab and go, the coming and going has to be from a highway overpass, and of course in 1964 police radar wasn't nearly so common, so you could break the speed limit and not have to be quite as concerned with it.

Or, the article notes the same NKP power set might show up several times, it could be one is Monday's train, one is Wednesday's train, etc.

[BR&P]

Further analysis of the books shows the "Farm Extra" is, as answered above, a drag freight to Buffalo. While they are shown as "extra" it appears during this time frame there were two each day.

The FFW1 had regular crews, working alternate days. On days FFW1 shows "thru cab", the conductor's regular assigned caboose shows as a deadhead on the first Farm Extra - allowing it to meet back up with its crew at Tifft St.

Other jobs west from Manchester included MB1, MS1, the P&L pickup, and S/B Pickup.

[Andyt293]

An obituary for JJ Young noted that he never had a drivers license. That made me wonder how the heck did he get around in order to take such fantastic photos.

[TB Diamond]

lvrr325: Thank you for the clarification. New York State Route 224 Odessa-Van Etten and 34 Van Etten to Waverly have actually changed very little since the early 1950s when I first traversed them. Given the fact, as Andyt293 related, that Mr. Young did not have a drivers license, it must be assumed he hired a very speedy driver and had a powerful automobile, to be sure.