Portageville Bridge Replacement, Future Tier Traffic

[Matt Langworthy]

It will be interesting to see how Gang Mills handles the additional volume as it looks pretty full most of the time now and strings are parked west of the yard and up in North Corning. Good problem for the yardmaster to have, I guess.

Poppyl

Ever time I have driven by Gang Mills, it has looked packed. Last time would have been spring/summer, 2008, but it was packed then...

I saw Gang Mills on the 21st and 23rd of last month. The yard was still packed.

This increased traffic is, of course, creating more wear and tear on the Portageville bridge... which should (hopefully!) push NS and the state to replace it soon.

[poppyl]

The frequency of coal drags coming off the WNYP should pick up as we move into the heating season. That doesn't affect the bridge, but does add more volume to Gang Mills.

Poppyl

[joshuahouse]

I'd try to get photos of trains by the concrete milepost on the Southern Tier Line as quick as you can this fall. A project is starting west out of Binghamton this fall to put up the new reflector signs and pulling out the original concrete ones. Safety first. Know where you are with the reflector signs.

In several cases much safer for those driving cars along the Canisteo River Road too!

[pumpers]

Here is some more fuel for the fire about the east end of the Southern tier. An interesting effect of expanded sea-based port-terminal traffic on the location of intermodal terminals for local traffic to/from the west. Related, consistent with this story, some time ago I think NS stopped hauling roadrailers to the NJ port area for local distribution, and now unloads them in the eastern PA area and trucks them in from there. Regarding the relationship to Portageville, those trains to the new intermodal terminals will have to come from somewhere. JS
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Susquehanna/message/19321
"Some major companies are planning and making initial investments in projects
they see as needed in a post-recession economnic recovery. My employer is one of
those companies.

To that end, expanded domestic intermodal capacity into the southern New England
and NYC metro region is seen as a key growth point. The New Jersey terminals are
reaching capacity and any future growth is going to be aimed at handling
overseas freight.

Therefore, any future domestic intermodal capacity is going to have to be gained
by building and expanding at inland locations. I point to the new CSX intermodal
terminal recently built in Chambersburg, PA to vent expanding domestic
intermodal growth away from the Baltimore intermodal terminals and their marine
intermodal business.

Look for future development of one or more intermodal terminals along the
eastern end of the Southern Tier to take advantage of lower property costs and
the adjoining highway network (I-87, I-287, I-84 and I-86) to form a regional
intermodal endpoint distribution network. That will require at least one
additional train each way per day for each terminal.

More trains for the Tier? Yeah, I believe it is on the way."

[century430]

I am thoroughly enjoying the lively discussion regarding the Tier. As an outsider, if NS could start building a new bridge tomorrow (I know they can't), how long would it take them to do the actual construction and have the bridge ready for traffic?

Does sound like things are poised for some developments on a long-forgotten, often hoped for corridor.

Jim Rowland

[poppyl]

At one time during design NS was using a two year timeframe from start of construction. I do not know if that schedule has been modified recently.

Poppyl

[century430]

Hearing of increased traffic to and through Gang Mills, has there been any talk of re-establishing the former LV Sayre yard for any type of local service? I seem to recall that idea floating around before.

Jim Rowland

[Matt Langworthy]

Hearing of increased traffic to and through Gang Mills, has there been any talk of re-establishing the former LV Sayre yard for any type of local service? I seem to recall that idea floating around before.

Jim Rowland

One of my clients is in Sayre and he told me back on Tuesday that the yard is stuffed full of sand hoppers. I don't know how much room for growth is left there.

[scottychaos]

Hearing of increased traffic to and through Gang Mills, has there been any talk of re-establishing the former LV Sayre yard for any type of local service? I seem to recall that idea floating around before.

Jim Rowland

One of my clients is in Sayre and he told me back on Tuesday that the yard is stuffed full of sand hoppers. I don't know how much room for growth is left there.

I was in Sayre a few weeks ago, and noticed all the sand hoppers too..
but "stuffed full" is very subjective!
the Sayre yard is still basically intact, since 1976..no major portions of it have been removed..
(except for the old Southern Central yard..but thats a very tiny percentage of the total yard)
so what might appear to be "stuffed full" from public roads running alongside the yard, is probably in reality only 10-25% full..
there is a LOT of room in that yard..

Scot

[NellieBly]

Well, I was just over the former DL&W from Scranton to Bingo and the former D&H from Bingo to Albany, and I can tell you NS is running a lot of trains on the Southern Tier. Our CP conductor said there are now six trains a day, each way, between Scranton and Bingo, and there's a lot more traffic than that moving over the Southern Tier and then up to the Albany area on CP trackage rights. Of course CP has rights on the Southern Tier and NS, when they sold the north end of the PRR Northern Central, arranged rights over CP between Sunbury and Binghamton. Put all that together, and you've got serious traffic volume.

NS and New York have applied for a TIGER grant to replace the Portageville bridge. The grant awards will be announced next month (I'm on one of the teams reviewing them right now). If the grant isn't funded, I'm not sure what NS will do, but they need to do something about the bridge. As noted in an earlier post, NS is doing major trackwork on the former Erie, so it's pretty clear they have an expectation of more traffic.

It's been interesting watching the rise and fall of railroad routes in this region. Conrail ended up with three routes from North Jersey to western New York -- the Erie, the former Lackawanna, and the LV. Conrail, of course, sold the DLW to CP, kept the Southern Tier east of Binghamton mainly to please New York, and ran most traffic on the LV. NS let the LV go in favor of rights over the former DLW. The north end of the LV (from Mehoopany) is leased to a short line, and south of Mehoopany is run by R&N down to Dupont. South of there, it still belongs to NS, with one track sold to R&N between Packerton Junction and M&H Junction.

What seems to be happening is that NS is making a through route to New England (where of course they recently set up Pan Am Southern) via Sunbury, Scranton, Binghamton, and Mechanicville. Plus they've arranged haulage on CP to Montreal (as has CSX). The result is that the former D&H is once again a "bridge line" and the volume of traffic on the Southern Tier is likely to grow substantially -- except, of course, for east of Binghamton.

[pumpers]

...
It's been interesting watching the rise and fall of railroad routes in this region. Conrail ended up with three routes from North Jersey to western New York -- the Erie, the former Lackawanna, and the LV. Conrail, of course, sold the DLW to CP, kept the Southern Tier east of Binghamton mainly to please New York, and ran most traffic on the LV. NS let the LV go in favor of rights over the former DLW. The north end of the LV (from Mehoopany) is leased to a short line, and south of Mehoopany is run by R&N down to Dupont. South of there, it still belongs to NS, with one track sold to R&N between Packerton Junction and M&H Junction.

Day to day it doesn't seem like much happens, but over 10-20 years things sure change. Was Conrail running between Sayre and Dupont on LV actually, and not so much on the DLW (Scranton to Binghamton)? One detail -- between Dupont and M&H Junction, I think it all belongs to R&N, NS has only trackage rights (and maybe not even that??) Bet NS wishes they did have their own track there-- then they might not be running Sunbury-Scranton on CP. JS

[conrailsharedassets]

The arrangement for the old LV between Sayre and Allentown is as follows:

Sayre to Mehoppany "Sayre Branch" - Lehigh Railway (leased from NS)
Mehoopany-Coxton "R&N Mehoopany Main"- R&N ownership
Coxton-M&H Junction (Lehigh Gorge) via Dupont "R&N Lehigh Line" - R&N ownership (Purchased from NS), NS has trackage rights over the line.
NS owns Track 1 and R&N owns Track 2 through the Lehigh Gorge
Packerton-Allentown "NS Upper Lehigh Line" - NS owned track.

As for the CP Sunbury Sub between Scranton and Binghamton, it is quite a busy railroad but it is by NO means a high density mainline. There is currently 4 NS trains 12T/13T (on and off the tier and R&N between Buffalo and Allentown) and 30T/31T (All CP routing between Montreal and CP Kase and then Buffalo line to Enola) which run with NS power and crews. There is also CP trains 412/413 which run with NS power and CP crews but carry mostly NS tonnage between Harrisburg to Binghamton. The rest of the traffic on the line is ALL CP's including trains 510, 511, 512, 513, 164, 165, 256 and 257 (which run varying schedules). There is roughly 10-14 trains a day (depending on the day of course) that run between Taylor (Scranton) and Binghamton. 8-11 trains Between Taylor and Dupont and 5-8 trains between Dupont and Kase on the Sunbury Sub.

Unbelievably, the CP Sunbury Sub handles nothing but NS freight. There are currently no Auto, Intermodal or Bulk Commodity trains from NS running on any segment of the line. But I believe once Mechancville Intermodal is done in New York, this will immediately change. It has already been discussed in full that NS is going to run at least 1 pair of intermodal/Auto trains from Harrisburg and Points South to Mechanicville in New York. I believe NS is going to find that the traffic growth and potential on this Corridor is so great, that the Sunbury Sub will likely see numerous intermodal trains running in the future and become a key route in NS's system. And I wouldn't be ALL to suprised to see NS link the Buffalo area with the Harrisburg Area via the Tier and Sunbury Sub with some sort of Direct Intermodal, Auto, Triple Crown and or Freight Service in the future.

The growth potential for the D&H and NS Southern Tier is looking Brighter than it ever has both in the present and for the future IMHO.

Jim

[Matt Langworthy]

I was in Sayre a few weeks ago, and noticed all the sand hoppers too..
but "stuffed full" is very subjective!
the Sayre yard is still basically intact, since 1976..no major portions of it have been removed..
(except for the old Southern Central yard..but thats a very tiny percentage of the total yard)
so what might appear to be "stuffed full" from public roads running alongside the yard, is probably in reality only 10-25% full..
there is a LOT of room in that yard..

My client meant well (since he knows I'm an LV fan) but you raise a good point about the perception of the yard being full. Knowing the layout of Sayre, I figure my client saw alot of hoppers from the street where his office is located and assumed the rest of the yard was equally full.

[SecaucusJunction]

I hope they really do start more service between PANYNJ and Buffalo or Canada. Vancouver port has been clogged for months and CP is a mess up there. It would probably actually save time to send shipments from Asia to Toronto or Montreal through PANYNJ... and I'm sure it would be cheaper.

[K4Pacific]

Are you sure that wasn't a long cut of salt hoppers for Ithaca. NS will congregate the week of loads into a nice unit train on Saturdays. On the athens end you'll find interchange for LV with sand and Mahoopanys etc. Just thinking. Plans are to transload sand at the noth end near the plastics plant and then at the south end on the Athens end. 2011s gonna rock.