Uplifting Rochester News?

[blockline4180]

I am also worried that the new climate bill could advesely affect railroads and Rochester industry...

Not only railroads, but the new climate bill will adversely affect ALL industries that are currently left in the country. IMHO, its a job killer, not a job creater.

[lvrr325]

Yep. At the risk of going way off topic - we have a president who can be quoted outright as saying he intends to kill the coal industry, and this cap & trade stuff will pretty effectively do that. How much coal is transported by rail to power plants in this state?

Vote them all out, state or national.


As far as the tank farms go, there must be a reason shipping that oil and gas by rail doesn't work. Maybe the Tank Train came too late for it? I know in Syracuse before the whole mall thing you could drive past the tank fams and while there were sidings into them, none appeared to have been in service any time recently. When Hess moved theirs out of the city limits, where it is now is not on live rail and although it's not too far to the CSX mainline, it would cost probably 5-10 million to build a siding into there.

Before someone brings it up, the tank farm in Oswego I think has other reasons it's not used - is the plant it serves even burning oil right now?

[nessman]

A few months ago - I was getting the family minivan fixed at a service station down in Retsof (unplanned repair... crappy Dodge brake lines).

A guy was there getting his company truck worked on as well - he pretty much services the natural gas pipelines in Western NY... I forgot what his territory encompasses - but let's say for the sake of argument that one person was responsible for around 150 miles of pipeline and the various compressor stations, etc... along the way - maintenance, repair, 24/7 emergency on-call (his company vehicle is his 24/7), etc.

Point being that its much more economical to transport bulk fluids like gas, oil, etc... via pipeline than it is via rail.

I think the tank-train was there strictly as a back-up in the event that oil couldn't be transported to the Oswego facility through normal means.

[scharnhorst]

A few months ago - I was getting the family minivan fixed at a service station down in Retsof (unplanned repair... crappy Dodge brake lines).

A guy was there getting his company truck worked on as well - he pretty much services the natural gas pipelines in Western NY... I forgot what his territory encompasses - but let's say for the sake of argument that one person was responsible for around 150 miles of pipeline and the various compressor stations, etc... along the way - maintenance, repair, 24/7 emergency on-call (his company vehicle is his 24/7), etc.

Point being that its much more economical to transport bulk fluids like gas, oil, etc... via pipeline than it is via rail.

I think the tank-train was there strictly as a back-up in the event that oil couldn't be transported to the Oswego facility through normal means.

I think they also transport Gas into Oswego bay Ship on Stolt-Neilsen which handles intercostal shipments along the U.S. and on the Great Lakes the ships are bright Yellow.

[BR&P]

There are a number of tank farms that do not have rail sidings - how can that be financially viable?

I think Nessman has the answer for a lot of them - the pipeline delivers the product and the trucks distribute it to the region. Far more economical than rail once the pipeline is in place.

Maybe GWR should take over all the industrial branches and provide more personalized service.

They do have a decent track record (no pun intended) but western New York is a long way from Colorado. And how could some company come into the state and just "take over all the industrial branches"? Those branches are the private property of whatever railroad owns them.

Not only railroads, but the new climate bill will adversely affect ALL industries that are currently left in the country.

Absolutely correct!

[SemperFidelis]

I'm pretty sure that industry and manufacturing in this country has deeper problems than the proposed environmental legislation. I'd imagine the lack of fair labor laws and a far lower standard of living in other countries has a lot more to do with outsourcing than environmental restrictions. Then again, it is a lot easier to just use right-of-center talking points to "prove" our points.

[blockline4180]

it is a lot easier to just use right-of-center talking points to "prove" our points.

I knew something like this would occur. I don't see how anything I said is a "right of center talking to prove a point"... If you must know, stuff like this has been going on for 35+ years now and I don't care who the politicians in power are on the right or left of the aisle! But of course disagreeing political views must always get in the way, right!?

[lvrr325]

I'm pretty sure that industry and manufacturing in this country has deeper problems than the proposed environmental legislation. I'd imagine the lack of fair labor laws and a far lower standard of living in other countries has a lot more to do with outsourcing than environmental restrictions. Then again, it is a lot easier to just use right-of-center talking points to "prove" our points.

For what it's worth, I figured it was off topic enough mentioning Obama's statement that he planned to tax the coal industry out of business, I guess I shouldn't have assumed it was too wildly off topic to need to find a direct quote and post it and the source for it rather than paraphrase it. Didn't really want to get that deep into politics outside of how they directly affect railroads - no coal means less trains - so I'd suggest using Google to check it out for yourself and put the kool-aid down for a bit.

[tenthousandhobbies]

have a decent track record (no pun intended) but western New York is a long way from Colorado. And how could some company come into the state and just "take over all the industrial branches"? Those branches are the private property of whatever railroad owns them.

GWR = stock ticker symbol for Genesee and Wyoming (R&S) sorry i should be careful not to casually throw abbreviations around that have multiple meanings in different venues

CSX could just sell the area's industrial branches to R&S or LAL and not have to worry about serving small operations.

Well, keep all the uplifting news a comin' (LOL)

[nessman]

Your best bet is to use AAR reporting marks (and not stock ticker symbols) as abbreviations when referring to railroads.

Over the years, most branchlines have gone to the shortline operators - especially with Conrail.

I can see the Charlotte Runner and Falls Road Industrial going to the R&S if the Kodak traffic declines to the point where it no longer makes business sense for CSX (especially if NS via R&S gets Kodak's coal contract).

Other than that - aside from the mainline, not much Class 1 carrier trackage left in the Rochester area to give to the shortlines.

[SemperFidelis]

Didn't really mean to get off topic myself either, just thought all points of view (not just the popular and easy ones) about the problems of American industry should be included.

Less coal does mean less trains, no doubt. Big supporter of coal energy myself. Strong environmental policies causing the downturn in American manufacturing, much less a certainty than a scare tactic.

Most of upstate and western New York are probably in for much harder times before anything turns around.

Prefer bug juice...

[scharnhorst]

Didn't really mean to get off topic myself either, just thought all points of view (not just the popular and easy ones) about the problems of American industry should be included.

Less coal does mean less trains, no doubt. Big supporter of coal energy myself. Strong environmental policies causing the downturn in American manufacturing, much less a certainty than a scare tactic.

Most of upstate and western New York are probably in for much harder times before anything turns around.

Prefer bug juice...

I'll take Coal, wind, or hydro power any day over Nuclear! I've always been an Anti-Nuclear supporter and will not budge from my view of it. Where I work we need and depend on the Hydro and the Gas & Oil industry and there orders to survive or else I'm out of the job! Ive managed to survive 2 layoffs this year already and the the 3ed wave of layoffs start at the end of the month!!

[lvrr325]

It's not even worth the argument, I'd have a more productive discussion with a brick.


Facts are facts, regardless of how people feel about them. The point of this thread was to find out if there were any good things happening in Rochester, related to the railroads. I think we've pretty well run into the ground that there just are few if any, and there's not likely to be anything anytime soon barring a major change in how industry and business are treated in the state in general. With the attitudes represented by some of the responses in this thread serving to prove the point. Business exists to make profit. The higher the costs, the lower the profit. If you raise the cost of doing business, the business will do whatever is necessary to remain profitable - or shut down. If you raise the cost of energy, business will only have that much more incentive to move not just out of New York, but to another country entirely.

[SemperFidelis]

I'd have to say that at this point the best hope for Rochester (barring any policy changes that we probably shouldn't talk about anymore since we can't play nice) is the increased mobility and access provided by the proposed high speed rail system. Like it or not, manufacturing isn't coming back to America (in a really big way) any time soon. If we're not going to make things to move on rails in America, we'd better get good at moving people who are doing the business of whatever the new economy is.

Differences in economic theory aside, I can't really imagine anything else happening that would benefit Rochester.

[BR&P]

"Increased mobility and access"?

How in the world is Rochester going to get increased mobility and access? We have a decently functioning highway system which compared to many cities is an easy commute, and allows big trucks. How is high speed rail going to improve on that?

We have an airport which is relatively easy to access compared to many other places. How is high speed rail going to improve on that?

We have a freight rail system which is a shadow of its former self because the need for it it a shadow of its former self. How is taking some tracks and right of way for high speed rail going to help that?

We have a passenger rail stop which is used by a certain percentage of people, and might attract a few more riders if it were faster.

We pay tax dollars to maintain roads, operate airports, and subsidize Amtrak. The SOURCE of those tax dollars is production and enterprise. By spending MORE tax dollars on something which already is redundant is foolish. Let's say magically, 150-mph rail happened today. What happens next? What adds to the tax base because it's here? Where do the ADDITIONAL dollars to operate and maintain it come from?

Some of the members on this forum are from the Rochester area. These are exactly the same arguments that were put forth for the fast ferry. It was going to improve access, stimulate tourism, bring new business, revitalize the area, and so on. The same exact things we're hearing now but the cost is geometrically higher. Those who objected to the ferry were branded short-sighted and ignorant. Ultimately the ferry enterprise sank like a stone (fortunately the boat itself did not) and millions of taxpayer dollars were lost.

The state is in a downward spiral and the way to reverse that is NOT by throwing money at foolish pipedreams that nobody needs. What we need is serious and significant tax relief to retain the businesses we have and attract new ones. By increasing jobs and production, tax revenues will rise and maybe things would start improving.

Those who support such frivolous malarkey - if their minds are at all open - would do well to read, and re-read, Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. (the heroine is even a railroad VP). In a nutshell, as burdens and obligations imposed for the "public good" become ever heavier, businesses close and their owners vanish. With each loss, those who remain bear an ever increasing share of the load. Exactly what this state is seeing every day.

Let's take those tax dollars we seem determined to spend and repair our roads, improve the rail freight infrastructure, and focus on improving our ability to attract business rather than driving it away.