Using SEPTA to Redevelop Philadelphia and to control Sprawl

Bensalem SEPTA rider wrote:What's the chance that the MFL areas (West Philly, Kensington-Port Richmond, Frankford) will make a comeback? The El is fast and convenient, those would be great areas to start.

I think bits of these kind of areas will make a comeback, but it will be through gentrification, not a return of upper-middle class families. El access probably won't have a lot to do with it.

I noticed today that on York Street just northwest of Aramingo there is a lot formerly occupied by a factory which is becoming a set of 3 story townhomes which will be selling from the low 300s. This location is not far from Richmond and Girard Ave with the 15, and is a reasonable distance from the MFL. I have to say I was kind of surprised at how good Fishtown looks, I'd only sped by it on I-95 or on the MFL and was under the impression that it was just another depressed North Philadelphia neighborhood with an abundance of loose trash and row homes. It really seems to be a very well-off neighborhood, if not a particularly rich one. If Northern Liberties is taking off at the rate many claim, then the 15 light rail could be assured to have a somewhat upper class ridership when it finally becomes operational. Once again I don't want to sound racist, but the media isn't going to write stories about the folks who lived there riding the trolley. Getting younger, middleclass families into those homes in the Northern Liberties and Fishtown, and getting them to ride the 15 (as well as to ride SEPTA in general) could help to make people realize transit is not 'just another form of welfare' as so many unenlightened suburbanite dwellers seem to think. Of course they're driving off to the corner store in their 5000lb, 15mpg SUV and never giving a thought to the maitenance costs on that road or where those funds come from.

The way the transport system is run in this country, Transit must be seen as a public utility like streets, and water, which are provided for the public good.

Fishtown/Richmond are two different animals entirely. Fishtown is being "gentrified", and a good number of those people probablly do use the El to get to Center City. Fishtown is a mix of newcomers and old blood, and I'm not sure how well the two mix, but the area is doing much better than it was 10 years ago.

Richmond is entirely different because to some respects, its too far from CC to be accessed by SEPTA. The unpredictable 15 and El make it a grueling commute. Times range from 20 mins peak to 50 minutes off peak. Try doing that in the rain/snow/cold. For that reason, I don't think you'll ever see suits on the 15 coming from Richmond. A few yes, but not alot. Until SEPTA reforms itself I don't think you will ever see any upper class ridership, except on the Regionals.

The 15 doesen't really serve anyone in Northern Liberties. They'll be using the 5 or the 47.

The way the transport system is run in this country, Transit must be seen as a public utility like streets, and water, which are provided for the public good.

Not really, I think people who have a choice will look at cost and time. Unless you have a direct route, affluent people are not going to ride a bus/trolley/subway, especially knowing SEPTA is always having issues (like 4 car El's on the weekend, 15 operators running their own schedule, etc.)

jfrey40535 wrote:Until SEPTA reforms itself I don't think you will ever see any upper class ridership, except on the Regionals.
. . .
I think people who have a choice will look at cost and time. Unless you have a direct route, affluent people are not going to ride a bus/trolley/subway, especially knowing SEPTA is always having issues

It seems to me that the problem goes even deeper than just whether there's a one-seat ride or not. Rightly or wrongly, the transit side of the system is now perceived as the province of the less affluent / nonprofessional / blue collar / no car demographic segment. I don't fit any of the above categories and had co-workers react with surprise (and in one case, disdain) when they found out I no longer rode the RRD and instead took the 100 and MFSE.

SEPTA itself is responsible for much of the shift. Back in the late 70s there were plenty of suits on the 100 every morning. As both of the above-mentioned routes deteriorated in the 80s and 90s, I watched ridership drop among people who could afford an alternative. Even with new cars and other gradual improvements, the damage is done and the chances of re-attracting that part of the demographic are roughly epsilon.

Ironic, actually, seeing as the Rt 100 and El can be faster than the RRD if you time it right (it is for me, going to 30th Street). Also, a lot of riders don't even know you can take the El/100. Once when the R6 was being held at Conshohocken (due to flooding), I led a small group of people back to Norristown that way, none of them previously knew it existed, and most claimed they would use it in the future if the case warranted.

Also, I think if everyone had someone to show them how to use the non-RRD rail transit properly(see above), and if it were more commom, more people would be willing to use it.

I've also played "tour guide" on a couple of occasions. It was interesting to see all of the upper-management types staring in wonderment at a form of transportation other than Silverliners. Some were actually nervous, and one refused to come along, saying that they would never set foot on the El.

So, there you have the sort of person running the show at Philly's corporations.

Downtown Philly is being remade into a bedroom community. I think there are more people driving out of town to work than the opposite. The transit systems date back to a time when the jobs were in Philly. It's a mess.

I think that suburban counties need their own public transit agencies. Septa is a lost cause for the suburbs. The only thing that makes any sense these days is more bus service. Suburban sprawl has put work places next to highway exits. Like it or not, the country has spent the last 50 years or so planning around the automobile.

Public transit will make a comeback in this country. I think it will start with an expansion of Amtrak's inter-city rail system. High oil prices will make air travel less desirable. Trains are much more fuel efficient per passenger than commercial jets. Philly has a head start with the R7 and R2 lines.

If present trends continue, One Liberty Place will be converted to Condomiums along with one or more of the "trophy" office buildings in town. As long as Mayor Street and his "brothers and sisters" (the Democratic power structure) are running the city, we cannot have the tax reforms needed to increase the number of center city office jobs.

Rail transportation is all but useless for transporting car-owning people from city to suburb and suburb to suburb. They may just get rid of RRD someday because low-income city people reverse communting to outlying job sites can't justify the enormous sums spent to subsidize it. That's why I gave up on Philadelphia as a hopeless basket case for rail transportation several years ago.

Philadelphia is a basket case for any form of transportation period. You can't live in the city (except for CC maybe) without owning a car. So you're stuck with the fixed cost of owning a car and having to pay for public transporation at the same time. And the added insult is that the public transit is a joke. Again, unless you live in CC, there is no quick, easy, painless way to get out of the city to areas like KoP or Paoli be it by car or SEPTA.

I really think SEPTA needs to be split up or privatized. The CTD should be taken over and run by the city by having them sub out the ops to a company, with the city directing where the routes go, and how often they run. The RR should just be taken over by the state and again sub'd out to another company, with someone like DVRPC dictating where the routes go and how often they run. SEPTA is just plain inept at planning.

And the way we are sprawled out, SEPTA is the worst way to get from suburb to suburb. The current RR system only works for those who work or live in the city/suburbs. If you live and work in the suburbs, SEPTA is useless. CC Metro isn't really the answer, but I don' think that should exclude its construction. We need smarter development, and incentives for people to work next to rail transporation.

Public transit will make a comeback in this country. I think it will start with an expansion of Amtrak's inter-city rail system

Unfortunately Amtrak is done. All that will be left in a few years is the NEC operated by who knows. If we had a real intercity rail system, Amtrak would be going to places like Allentown, Scranton, Bethlehem, Atlantic City and so on with real service. Right now, all Amsmack does is run the NEC, Harrisburg route and a bunch of money losing LD trains that don't do any justice to average commuters.

While I don't consider Philadelphia to be a 'basket case' when it comes to public transit, I feel that Southeastern Pennsylvania certainly doesn't perform to it's potential. If public transit, on a whole, were subsidized as heavily by the federal and state governments as the highways are, this thread would be moot. We need only to look overseas at Europe and Japan to see their highly efficient and innovative transit systems as proof. Once again, I don't believe privatization is the solution. SEPTA may not be the best, but it certainly is not the worst. I think instead of trying to tear up everything and start from scratch, we should invest in our current infrastructure and work from there. The problem is no one wants to pay for it.
Furthermore, I don't believe that rail transportation is 'all but useless' for transporting people from city to suburb. SEPTA's problem is that their railroad division bosses don't know squat about operating a real railroad. I can't say it any simpler than that. SEPTA is a bus company that owns and operates a railroad with no idea how to run it to its full potential. SEPTA is also inundated with decision makers who consistently contradict each other. It really doesn't help when the folks that make the big decisions regarding public transit don't use public transit themselves.
It really is hard to expect SEPTA to do a lot of expanding when they still don't have a reliable source of funding. A private company would fail before it started without substantial government subsidy. Amtrak and the airlines beg just like SEPTA does, and get the same results. Why would one think that some newly established private operator would get any better from Uncle Sam.
SEPTA is inept, mismanaged, and in turmoil. I grant that! What SEPTA really needs is REAL LEADERSHIP, not an accountant who doesn't know R5 from Route R. SEPTA needs folks who know the business of public transit, not political cronies and fly-by-night management who don't have a concise, consistent, and clear cut agenda to improve transit across the board. The railroad division, in particular, needs someone who knows and understand the fundamentals of operating a REAL RAILROAD, not a single person in charge of all transit vehicles on steel wheels like they currently have, who has joint responsibility over RRD ops, lightrail, and trolleys. The person in question never (and I won't say his name) has no experience, and isn't qualified, on ANY PORTION OF SEPTA'S OR AMTRAK's RAILROAD. I find this unacceptable.
All and all, the first step to improving SEPTA is placing folks who have competent backgrounds and transit experience with a will to improve the infrastructure in place. Implement some sort of public advisory board to provide suggestions and complaints for and about SEPTA, maybe even a publicly elected board member or members. SEPTA could also use a GM who has some political muscle or a persuasive oratory to fight for a dedicated source of funding in from Harrisburg. You can't make a dollar out of fifteen cents!
That's my rant.

Well put whovian but....

I don't consider Philadelphia to be a 'basket case' when it comes to public transit

transportation (auto, bus, train) in Philadelphia IS a basket case. If one has to make a morning commute from the city to the main line for example, there's no pretty way to do it. You could:
1. Do the Skuykill shuffle
2. Squeeze onto a packed R5 and do the mainline poke along with the wonderful speeds and track conditions over there.
3. Deal with the Market-Frankford smELl and the 100 (if it goes near where you have to go)

I don't believe that rail transportation is 'all but useless' for transporting people from city to suburb

It all depends where you're going. If you're taking the train from city to burbs the train ONLY helps you out if your destination is within walking distance of the train station. In the burbs there really is no such thing as a connecting bus except for a few instances, but the majority of the RR stations have limited or no bus service. As someone who works in different places on a regular basis I can say that the train very rarely does me any good for going to the burbs, simply because it takes longer ( a problem amplified by 1 hour headways) or because it goes nowhere near where I have to go, and if it is "close" its not something I would do on a rainy or frigid day, the car is the more appealing and convenient option.

So, Jfrey, don't you think that if SEPTA had the money and the political kick in the butt that transit wouldn't be better? What would really change if a private operator came in. They would still have the same basic infrastructure as SEPTA does now, and they will still need the capital to expand. We expect better out of SEPTA, yes! But, SEPTA like any other public transit agency needs the money to do it. All of these counties want more service but don't want to spend the money. It simply doesn't work that way. A private operator wouldn't derive any profit from operating public transit. We would still be in the same situation with a different heading over our rants. As I said in my previous post, a positive change in the leadership of SEPTA with personnel that have a credible knowledge of public transit operations and a bonafide desire to make that operation effective is a step in the right direction. An accountant and a bunch of lawyers should not be operating a public transit service! SEPTA's upper and midlevel management should be scaled back and reorganized. They are just as ignorant of transit operations, for the most part with few exceptions, as their bosses. I don't mean to sound callous towards their jobs, but there are simply to many incompetent chiefs making bad decisions at SEPTA and an equal amount of indians who get the public's ire as a result of their bosses inability to perform.
Don't forget that SEPTA needs a dedicated source of funding. SEPTA doesn't operate on credit. They can't expand if they don't have the money, and they don't know when there next influx of cash is coming from.
I guess there is a little bootstrapping going on here. Inflation is a reality in 2005. SEPTA doesn't have reliable funding so they cut back service and routes. SEPTA is cutting back service and routes so now the public is angry. The government sees that the public loathes SEPTA so they fail to properly fund it as a result. There has to be some break in the cycle.
I agree that SEPTA's bus routes in correlation with RRD stations are horrendous and virtually nonexistent; once again, the cash and the amount of people have to be there to justify expansion. SEPTA just doesn't have the money,or the leadership, to make things happen.

don't you think that if SEPTA had the money and the political kick in the butt that transit wouldn't be better

They might, but there is no incentive for them. No drive for excellence, quality, customer satisfaction.

What would really change if a private operator came in.

If the city hired a contractor to operate the railroad, you could hold their feet to the fire when things weren't up to snuff. If a bus/train showed up early and left 20 people in the wind, you might actually have a prayer at getting action taken against the employees that decided to operate on their own schedule. Trains dirty? Again, you have someone to complain to. Sure SEPTA has a complaint department right now, but after all the many many complaints I did about the 15 showing up early, or leaving the loop late, did things change? NO! Not a bit! Its as bad now as it was when it was a bus.

Maybe a private operator might actually see the value in getting the right equipment for the right routes! A company that has an incentive to operate efficiently would end wasteful bus idling or running full sized buses to haul half a dozen people. Maybe you'd actually get a first class bus on a run like 124/125! Maybe you could get premium seating on select railroad lines--there would be a drive to attract people to the service! Right now, WaWa clerks are more courteous and friendly than SEPTA employees---a private operator would stress that.

We need someone to stop operating SEPTA like a toilet. Since day 1 they have done nothing but degrade service. You're not going to get a quality transit system from a public agency with people in patronage jobs--never.

Public transit is not a break even operation, that's why the infrastructure should be owned by the city and state, but the city and state can pay a company to run it, staff it and maintain it---with conditions! If they fail to meet the conditions, they don't get paid, if they exceed the conditions, they get a bonus---bonus's are meant to inspire acheivement and performance. At SEPTA, regardless of how things are run, people get paid the same things.

And all the planners with their college degrees can't seem to figure out how to run a transit system let alone encourage postive performance. Something as simple as a "Route of the Year" bonus might encourage drivers, bus cleaners and supervisors to do a better job. The whole company from head to toe needs to be cleaned out. Might as well just start from scratch with a new company period.

jfrey40535 wrote:You're not going to get a quality transit system from a public agency with people in patronage jobs--never.

As long as I have seen, SEPTA is not a patronage agency, at least not in terms of hiring (some professional services contracts, such as bond counsel, may be another story).

As far as bus drivers and train crews operating on 'their own schedule', you are dead wrong. Any delay of 6 minutes or later at a terminus or turnaround point and we have to account for it. If your explanation isn't up to snuff, you are severely disciplined. I can vouch for that. Also, for every minute we leave a station earlier than its scheduled time, we are on an unpaid vacation (better known as Out of Service or suspension) a day per minute. In other words leave 20 minutes early, that's 20 days off without pay. Don't forget that on the RRD division, all of those trains are equiped with black boxes, which among other things, records speeds.
As far as the cleanliness of transit vehicles, Jfrey, I can assure you that they (SEPTA) do everything possible to keep their fleet clean. I hate to say it, but sometimes the riding public are pigs. Train leaves Roberts Yard for Trenton gets trashed on its way up and even worse on its turnaround. It's the nature of the beast out there. I've seen filthier.
As far as your argument for a private operator, I must renew my argument that those things that you suggested could occur with the current infrastructure we have, but it starts with replacing the key figures in SEPTA's operations and upper management. No need to privatize, it really would solve nothing. SEPTA needs a sufficient, reliable, dedicated source of funding to operate more efficiently. You can't have a 1st class service with 3rd rate funding.
If the counties want more bus service and rail routes, they have to pony up more money. A private operator, who no doubt would receive equal or less government funding than SEPTA currently does, would be in the same predicament and make the same argument.
Jfrey, I understand your frustration. Some of us SEPTA employees are just as frustrated as you. Your statement about SEPTA employees all having bad dispositions is simply not true, and even if it were, employees don't make decisions at SEPTA. Employees didn't raise fares, reduce service, reduce public funding. SEPTA did! and our elected officials did next to nothing to stop it. A private company would be just as subject to government bailouts as SEPTA is now. What would be the point?