Typical Work Day for a Conductor/Trainman

What is the typical work day like for a Conductor or Trainman (if the y still have Trainmen) on RRD? Say he/she is assigned to R5 - how many round trips would he/she take? Is it an 8 hour day? Say you start your day in Lansdale, would your shift end in Lansdale also? Just wondering.....

budmancjm wrote:What is the typical work day like for a Conductor or Trainman (if the y still have Trainmen) on RRD? Say he/she is assigned to R5 - how many round trips would he/she take? Is it an 8 hour day? Say you start your day in Lansdale, would your shift end in Lansdale also? Just wondering.....

Just happen to have a run sheet here, and I pulled Run 303 out at random:

Monday through Friday
Report at Media at 6:00 am
Depart 6:20 am on train D305 (deadhead to Elwyn)
Operate train 330: depart Elwyn 6:35 am, arrive West Trenton 8:21.
Operate train 331: depart West Trenton 9:00 am, get off at Suburban 10:05
Operate train 9122: get on at Suburban 11:05 am, arrive Roberts 11:21
Operate train 9129: depart Roberts 11:42 am, get off at Suburban 12:00 noon
Lunch break
Operate train 4232: get on at Suburban 1:35 pm, arrive Warminster 2:24
Operate train 4143: depart Warminster 2:44 pm, get off at Suburban 3:30
Ride (deadhead) train 357: get on at Suburban 4:06 pm, get off at Media 4:41

Total work time 10:46, pay time with OT 12.2 hours.

This crew also has duty on Saturdays, reporting at Media 5:49 am to operate trains D1302, 8302, 8303, 8306, 8307, 8310, (lunch) 8312, 8313, 8316, and deadhead on 8317 back to Media. That's 9:07 of work, and 9.7 hours pay. Total pay hours for this run is 74.7 per week.

Typically crew runs are designed so that they finish at the same location where they started at. The typical work day for a day time run is about 10+ hours, and most have a sixth day of about 8 and 1/2 hours. The typical midday run is about 10 hours, and most of those also are six day runs. The pm runs, which start after 4pm, are generally about 8 1/2 hours and roughly half of those jobs are 6 days, and the other half 5 days.
Depending where crews begin or end, crews generally perform their own brake tests at initial terminals or outlying points, raise their own pantographs in certain locations such as the runner track in West Trenton, operate switches, and perform coupling and uncoupling of equipment. The typical work day for a revenue crew at SEPTA is radically different from that on other railroads. Once again, SEPTA bus company mentality rears its ugly head.
The run that Matt Mitchell displays in the above post is generally worked by a crew that has over 30 years seniority on the railroad, both engineer and conductor each. Someone would have to wait their turn to be able to bid and hold a run such as the one above, and it is not the typical pay hours for someone with, say, 5 or 10 years seniority.
SEPTA calls its 'trainman', Assisant Conductors, and they do not typically do the work that their counterparts on other railroads perform (operating switches, tying on handbrakes, typical trainman responsibilities). SEPTA lays all of the grunt work on the conductor, which is backwards and defeats the purpose of them being the boss of the train. Assistant Conductors on SEPTA are basically just ticket punchers, a culture that is perpetuated by SEPTA's mentality on railroad operations.

Guys - thanks so much for the info - I had no idea so many hours were involved - I commuted fro mGlenside to Market East for many years and usually saw the same crew on my train inbound but a different crew outbound, I had been under the impression Conductors and Assistants worked a regular 8 hour day, 5 days a week, I see that is definitely not the case! I remember as a kid the Assistant Conductors were called Trainmen, but that goes back to the old Reading days - the Conductor had a gold band on his cap that said "CONDUCTOR" and the trainmen a silver band that said "TRAINMAN" - guess that all changed with SEPTA's takeover.... Anyway thanks for the great info!

budmancjm wrote:Guys - thanks so much for the info - I had no idea so many hours were involved.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Whovian, but that's by choice of the union. They'd rather have the long hours so they can maximize their pay.

Well I dont think Mr. Mitchell that putting info out there about our pay hours and overtime is really anyones business but the crews themselves. Thats just my opinion and Im sure that will be shared by many of my co-workers....
Thank You

OK so this is interesting -is the workweek so long because that is how the crew wants it, or is it company imposed? In other words, are there some runs with only 40 hours per week, like the pm runs Whovian explained? Is the "typical" run Matthew Mitchell was kind enough to post coveted by the senior crews because it contains more hours and therefore more pay?
BuddSilverliner, there's really no reason to attempt to quash the discussion, I have no "hidden agenda" here, just some interest. Thanks

Hey budman, you have it all wrong because Im not trying to quash any issue, Im trying to quash letting out company info when it comes to work pay and overtime and putting out train numbers that a certain crew works because i feel as though its really nobody's business so please dont take that the wrong way or think im trying to be rude because im not. How would you feel if you were reading online about your company and all of your pay info and overtime was being released and the exact moment you are suppose to take lunch or do something at that exact moment to outsiders? Im sure the same way I feel. You asked how many hours on average we work and if you stay on the same route and Matt Mitchell had to spell out a certain run and exact train numbers and pay for a day. None of that is necessary. To answer your question yes we do put in long hours and work week and we dont stay on the same route all day. Some jobs you do but most dont and some jobs pay more then others.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:

budmancjm wrote:Guys - thanks so much for the info - I had no idea so many hours were involved.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Whovian, but that's by choice of the union. They'd rather have the long hours so they can maximize their pay.

To answer your question, Yes, it is partially the unions that want those runs the way they are, or at least some of them. The run that you described above is not the typical run for everyone in regards to pay hours. One would have to have at least 20+ years to see those kinds of jobs on a regular basis. SEPTA also wants those long work hours so they don't have to hire more crews to do the same amount of work, it just so happens that this financially benefits those who wish to work such a grueling schedule. Just be aware that 70+ pay hours are not the typical work week for everyone on the RRD. The bulk of the evening runs are below 50 pay hours, and its generally the crew members with less seniority that work them. There are no runs that work a straight 40hour work week, I believe the lowest is about 44.5 hours.[/u]

budmancjm wrote:Guys - thanks so much for the info - I had no idea so many hours were involved - I commuted fro mGlenside to Market East for many years and usually saw the same crew on my train inbound but a different crew outbound, I had been under the impression Conductors and Assistants worked a regular 8 hour day, 5 days a week, I see that is definitely not the case! I remember as a kid the Assistant Conductors were called Trainmen, but that goes back to the old Reading days - the Conductor had a gold band on his cap that said "CONDUCTOR" and the trainmen a silver band that said "TRAINMAN" - guess that all changed with SEPTA's takeover.... Anyway thanks for the great info!

Sometimes we leave work, come home and go right to sleep, and its time to go right back out. Railroading requires a considerable commitment of one's time. I'm sure some of you ride the pm rush trains in to Center City with the same conductor that brought you into town in the morning.

BuddSilverliner269 wrote:How would you feel if you were reading online about your company and all of your pay info and overtime was being released and the exact moment you are suppose to take lunch or do something at that exact moment to outsiders?

I'll disclose mine myself... I'm salaried, so I only get paid 40 hours per week, but I usually work about 50 hours per week. Oh, I usually take 45 minutes for lunch.

I like this thread since it's interesting to see some of the trips/routes and yes, even the hours/overtime breakdown. I don't think that it's offensive and it's not like Matthew put dollar figures in the message.

If your hand is in the public till like SEPTA's is, then base wages rates, by class-not individuals, and work schedules should be public information- the taxpayer is paing for it. My salary is published annually in the newspaper, along with everyone else who works for local government in this area.

Considering these people are public employees, and that their hours of service have a direct bearing on public safety, I don't think there should be a problem with explaining how a typical shift might run. I agree that reporting on a specific individual (I have no idea who currently holds run 303) or his or her pay is out of line here.

And it's not exactly a secret that railroaders everywhere work a lot of hours, and get paid accordingly.

whovian wrote:To answer your question, Yes, it is partially the unions that want those runs the way they are, or at least some of them.

That's an important point: both sides like the status quo. I don't have a problem with it as long as it doesn't affect safety. I recall that some other railroads have been concerned with fatigue, and ran into union resistance when they tried to reduce employees' work hours.

The run that you described above is not the typical run for everyone in regards to pay hours. One would have to have at least 20+ years to see those kinds of jobs on a regular basis.

While I don't doubt that the nice high-hour straight shifts go to guys with seniority, I see plenty of runs with 70 or more pay hours.

SEPTA also wants those long work hours so they don't have to hire more crews to do the same amount of work, it just so happens that this financially benefits those who wish to work such a grueling schedule. Just be aware that 70+ pay hours are not the typical work week for everyone on the RRD.

Yep. It's a trade-off between overtime costs and benefits/adminstrative/training costs. But I think that if the unions really wanted shorter shifts, they could probably get them.

I should also note that the majority of jobs are six days a week instead of five. Very few work straight Monday-Friday jobs.

The bulk of the evening runs are below 50 pay hours, and its generally the crew members with less seniority that work them. There are no runs that work a straight 40 hour work week, I believe the lowest is about 44.5 hours.

Looks like that to me, but by my glance through the list, there are not very many runs below 50 pay hours, even in the evening. A lot more 60s and 70s. Am I right in concluding that most of the jobs with shorter hours are yard or protect jobs? You get proportionally more of them in the evening, it looks like.

And the longest I saw in thumbing through the book was over 85 pay hours. That's for a Mon-Fri split shift (which happens to include my usual train in the morning): on duty at 4:47 am, off duty at 9:15 am, then back on at 1:40 pm and working until 6:17 pm. So that's 9:05 of work in a 13:30 spread, and 14.3 (decimal) hours for pay purposes. Then this crew has a straight Saturday job on 7:24 am and off at 5:00 pm, for 9:36 work hours and 10.4 paid.

And a bulk of those 70+ jobs are tailor made for the Frazier (bulk location of high seniority)crews if you take a closer look at the run guide. Just bear in mind that the number of crewmembers are not directly proportional to the amount of runs you see advertised in the run guide. In other words, there are about 45 extra engineers and about 100 total extra conductor/assistant conductors that work day-to-day on call via the extra list; therefore, there are not as many high paying jobs for everyone as the run guide would leave you to believe. Only a minority of the total crew members get paid in that 70+ hour stratosphere.

Yeah, the union could likely reduce the amount of time crews work, but SEPTA would try to reintroduce the 'trippers' we used to have to work. An example of the tripper is a follows: start at Lansdale at 6:00am for one round trip and arrive back at 10:00am; then at 1:30pm, sign up at Warminster for another roundtrip or so and finish up around 5:30. Now that turns out to be a 11 and 1/2 hour overall work day that SEPTA used to pay 8 hours for, and you had to drive to two different locations for work in the same day. We used to call it 8 for 10 or 10 for 12. SEPTA used to make us work 10 hours and get paid for 8. That would be the end result if the union made such a proposal.

Now if you want to compare the 70+plus jobs to the 55 and under jobs ,since you obviously have a run guide, look at how many trains some of those pm jobs work to get paid for 50 hours as opposed to the daylight jobs. I'm not one to complain; I'm grateful to be employed.

No, you are not correct that the lower paying jobs are mainly yard and protect jobs. Those jobs generally go to the senior crews also. I respectfully suggest you look at some of those yard jobs out of Frazier, Roberts Ave., and Overbrook Yard. Powelton Yard and Wayne Electric Car shop are not far behind. The folks that work those protect runs have 18 years, bare minimum, and I know them all personally.

The 85 hour run you point out is held by a crew that is in the very upper echelon of both rosters, UTU and BLET. I'm talking guys who hired with the Pennsy and Conrail. Once again, that is a tailor made run and it is not typical for everyone to work those sorts of jobs.