Trip Report -- Lake Shore Limited/Empire Builder

I hate to interject myself into this, but it's always possible that the middle path may be true: That there were indeed "empty" compartments, but the conductor, for some unknown operational reason, was hesitant to sell the space.

At first glance, this can be interpreted as Not Maximizing Revenue (which it could be) but it also could be a simple case of issues beyond our knowledge. Maybe there were no clean sheets, for instance, or the train had a "tight turn" and they didn't want to have to risk changing the bedding out again. Or the retention tanks were nearly full, and they didn't want to sell the room knowing there would soon be no toilet service available, but not wanting to make an announcement to that effect. I could go on, but you get my point.

One solution might be to close the doors and draw the drapes on those "available" rooms, but that is not a good service to the existing passengers who might want to look out the window aross the hall.

The whole access to the sleepers thing reminds me of a situation last year on the Southwest Chief, when I was travelling in the summertime "third sleeper" (which is put on the end of the train, behind the coaches). This was when they still had the complimentary soft drinks, and our attendant (who was excellent, btw) was psychic about coach passengers coming back through our car and helping themselves to the soft drinks. I swear she would appear out of nowhere with a very pointed "Can I HELP you?" whenever and interloper appeared. She was not a lady I would want to mess with. LOL

Indeed. All are possibilities. I got the impression that he was basically lazy. But my impression could have been wrong.

Good. Then there'll be no trouble editing the trip report to remove the shot, right?

Done. I assume I edited what Mr. Fels had in mind as the "parting shot."

(Does anyone know why the edit feature is not always available? It seems to come and go.)

The purpose of neither trip was to count vacant rooms. As I recall, the counting really took place in the first walk -- again largely motivated by the surprisingly large vacancy rate that appeared to be present. All I really noted during the second walk is that the large vacancy rate did not appear to have changed.

I would respectfully ask that if Mr. Fels has any other querries, to please raise them in one last post. I will attempt to answer them. On the other hand, if Mr. Fels simply wishes to have the last word, I will enthousiastically allow him do so. Just let me know.

The fact that the agent in Chicago said a room would cost $ 125 would indicate that rooms were avaliable . therefore the conductor should have been in a position to offer the upgrade .

Maybe the lesson for next time is to make a counteroffer at, well, the counter. "The train's about to depart--will you take $87.50 for it?" And if the answer is in the negative--no harm, no foul.

Do Amtrak's ticket agents have the authority to entertain "counteroffers"?

I've been following this thread with interest. Although I travel frequently by sleeper, I do so only for trips that are true overnight journeys. For all-daylight trips (or trips of under 12 hours that will see me reach my destination by, say, 4 a.m.), a coach ticket is always more than sufficient.

My questions / observations:

Is it really worth forking over an extra $125 (or more) just to have a room for the run between Chicago and St. Paul/Minneapolis -- an all-daylight trip that lasts a paltry eight hours?

And why do some passengers (including, it seems, one or two members of this forum) find the mere thought of traveling by coach so completely nauseating?

Trust me, riding with "the common folk" (especially on a trip that lasts only a few hours) really ain't so horrible. Besides, it builds character.

That which doesn't kill me makes me stronger.

Mr. EastCleveland raises an interesting question, and in so doing, he offers a thoughtfull opinion. I hope I can recipricate. Personally, my response depends on the exact circumstances in which I find myself. I will begin with some general observations, and then I will offer my thoughts with respect to some of the journeys in which I regularly undertake.

Preliminarily, I do not find traveling in coach nauseating, but I readily concede that my posts on this Forum could reasonably give that impression. My attitude towards coach is a function of several factors, some of which have evolved over time.

In my high school / college years, I travelled throughout North America almost exclusively in coach, and I enjoyed the experience completely. Now, twenty years later, my priorities have changed considerably. Nevertheless, although I would not even consider an overnight coach trip, daylight coach is still a possibility.

All of that said, here are some of my personal guideposts:

(1) My favorite aspect of long distance rail travel is the opportunity it provides for quality family time. Now that I have the little one, this aspect is paramount. (I was touched, recently, by a correspondent who expressed his unfettered excitement over an upcoming journey on the SW Chief with his son at his side.) Accordingly, at an absolute minimum, I insist that my family not be seperated onboard, which can be an issue in coach.

(2) My second favorate aspect of long distance rail travel is the opportunity to dine in the dining car. As a corelary point, I would not travel on any long distance train that did not offer a dining car. Lounge care fare, alone, just does not cut it for me anymore.

(3) Now that I have a little one, I have become a more choosey about the traveling clientel with whom I will associate. Although I am not an eletist, I have less tolerance for true riff raff then I did in my younger years.

(4) I am learning quickly that privacy has important benefits for small children. For example, the ability to isolate an exhausted child from other children can be the difference between a 4 hour nap during which mom and dad can completely relax and 4 hours of absolute hell.

(5) Quality time -- in general -- is in shorter supply than ever before, and I find myself searching for it at every opportunity.

Thus, having identified some of my motivating considerations, I will turn to specific journeys in which I regularly take.

Westbound Empire Builder (Chicago to Saint Paul).

Because I arrive Chicago in first class, I have always had access to the Metropolitan Lounge and priority boarding on the Empire Builder. Therefore, family seating is not an issue. In addition, in my experience, the Empire Builder's dining car has always been available for coach passengers, especially if they are willing to be flexible in their seating choices. Therefore, I usually find coach perfectly acceptable for this portion of my trip. Considering that my wife and I were not even interested in dinner on our last trip due to our outstanding lunch at Berghoffs, we were really quite content in coach. In fact, for these reasons, we never book sleeping car space for this segment.

Eastbound Empire Builder (St. Paul to Chicago).

In my experience, when the Empire Builder arrives St. Paul, the long haul coach passengers are pretty much spread out. Dissrupting them for seating is no fun. In addition, the train normally adds a coach in St. Paul, and the crew typically directs all boarding passengers to that coach. As a result, beginning an hour, or more, before departure, a long line often forms in St. Paul for coach boarding. If, upon arriving the station, I see that a line has begun to form, I will always inquire about upgrading. The last thing I want to do is spend my last hour with my elderly parents trying to stand in a line. Now with the little one, the line is even more unthinkable. Thus, the ability to cut that line alone is worth at least $20.00. Although access to the dining car is not really an issue, the cost of two breakfasts and two lunches for the three of us in the dining car easily approaches $50.00. Therefore, to my mind, a standard bedroom is worth $70.00 -- at a minimum. As I rereported above, I was willing to fork over the $96.00 that Amtrak was asking on my last trip, but I would say that amount was approaching my limit.

Trips Up and Down the Eastern Seaboard

My basic thoughts described above are equally applicable to these trips. In addition, I would note that I find that the riff raff ratio is higher in the coaches of these trains than on the Empire Builder. I have also found coach passengers often are simply not afforded any access to the dining cars. Therefore, I generally will not consider daylight coach on a Florida train.

Trips Up and Down the California Coast

The riff raff factor in coach on the Coast Starlight has never been a problem, nor have I ever encountered a problem with access to the dining car. In addition, I have often seen the coach attendants assigning seats upon boarding to assure that families traveling together actually sit together. On the other hand, the Pacific Parlour car, of course, is a special attraction that has often motivated me to upgrade. Also, the priority dining car reservations afforded to sleeping car passengers is especially usefull in timing one's dinner to the sunset over the Pacific ocean between SLO and SBA. I generally take a sleeper car on this train only when I know, for sure, that it is operating with a Pacific Parlour car, and only then when the cost of the room is no more than 50% greater than the retail cost of the complimentary meals in the dining car.

Yeah, I can partly understand how some passengers want to shelter their offspring from the Great Unwashed Masses. But kids need to experience human beings in all their variations -- and there's no better place to do it than on a train.

In coach.

Granted, I live in one of the most heavy-duty urban areas on the planet. So maybe my tolerance level for the aforementioned "riff raff" is much higher than that of some members on this board. But during my many Amtrak trips over the years -- east coast, west coast, and points-in-between -- I've seen maybe three passengers I'd consider truly unsavory.

Then again, I spent virtually every summer until my 15th birthday riding the pre-Amtrak rails with my family. If First Class lounges existed back then, I didn't know about them. Or care. At Grand Central Terminal, Pennsylvania Station, Hoboken Terminal, Cleveland Union Terminal, Toledo Central Terminal, LaSalle Street Station, and a half dozen smaller depots, I sat with my parents, grandparents, and siblings on wooden benches in the main waiting room just like everyone else.

Once we boarded those trains, I never saw the inside of a dining car. Never slept in a sleeper compartment. But I did have two peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, a coach seat, and America outside the window. I suppose some people might call it child abuse (what? no deluxe room?). But those trips remain the most magical memories of my entire childhood.

Of course, from November through March, I also walked fifteen miles to school each day, barefoot, through a raging blizzard. But I think you get the picture. Sleeping cars and Metropolitan Lounges are nice. But they're certainly not absolutely necessary ingredients for a perfectly fine rail trip. Especially if you're a kid.

And frankly? The "riff-raff" I meet in Amtrak coaches are often considerably more interesting than the suburban drones I've met in the sleeping cars.

I agree that traveling by train is generally a great way to meet interesting people.

As a child, my family traveled by train frequently (almost all trips on the Empire Builder out of Saint Paul, either east or west), and we did so always in coach. We did eat in the dining car. I, too, have magical memories of these experiences, especially sitting up late in the dome cars lookingout over the countryside.

To some extent, however, I submit that times have changed since Mr. EastCleveland and myself were children.

I do not wish to belabor the "riff raff" point too much, as it was merely one of the five items on my list of considerations, and not a high one at that. But I do want to clarify that when I refer to "riff raff", I am envisioning people such as drug mules, obvious gang members, people actively engaging in anti-social or criminal behavior, and people with seriously deficient personal hygine. By no means am I suggesting that Amtrak's coach clientel -- or even an appreciable percentage of them -- are riff raff. Over the years, however, I have experienced more true riff raff on some of Amtrak's trains that Mr. EastCleveland appears to have experienced (although I can't be sure if we are using the exact same defintion of the term).

Although I agreee with Mr. EastCleveland that it is important to expose one's children to even true "riff raff", I simply do not wish to use my train journeys for that purpose.

Rhinecliff wrote:(4) I am learning quickly that privacy has important benefits for small children. For example, the ability to isolate an exhausted child from other children can be the difference between a 4 hour nap during which mom and dad can completely relax and 4 hours of absolute hell.

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This is one area i think trains ( Amtrak ) has an advantage over the competition . Often people travelling with small kids are apprenhsive about their child getting tired or otherwise having reason to play up . Many of these parents wouldnt have the financial means to travel first class , may not have a car , and so thier choice is either amtrak coach , or greyhound .
I was going to suggest a kids play area in a downstairs area of a superliner , which would be great . However perhaps of more value would be a quiet semi private area , enough room for a child to lay down and a parent to sit , ( either glass surrounded or with curtains ). this could then be allocated at the conductors discretion , to kids and parents who need a couple of hours sleep or timeout , or to other passengers not feeling well ( i.e sick but not an emergcency ). knowing that this was avaliable would make train travel more attractive to parents with kids , and would pay of for a relatively small investment .

There is reasonable possibility that Mr. Cleveland had this Member in mind when making this statement during his initial posting to this thread:

"And why do some passengers (including, it seems, one or two members of this forum) find the mere thought of traveling by coach so completely nauseating?"

Be assured, I take no offense whatever, because it is quite true.

No question whatever, I have consistently noted at this Forum (and elsewhere) that overnight travel should be contemplated only by Sleeper. I further believe that even for an extended daylight trip, such as the Chi-StP trip taken by Mr. Rhinecliff, I would likely book a day room. I have done so in the past for trips such as Ogden-Denver, Reno-Oak, Chi-Marion, IA, Chi-Kan City - even Chi-Joliet (but that was once to have dinner on the Super).

On the other hand, I am quite content to ride Coach anywhere in the Corridor.

I think my goal is simply to be able to have, at my pleasure, privacy. If I wish to socialize, that is what the Lounge and Diner are for. But if I so choose, I can retreat - that's the way I like it and I'm willing to pay for it. This probably has more to do with myself than it does any of my fellow passengers.

Is a day room or other daytime First Class travel as essential as I find a Sleeper to be?, of course not! But it is a nice luxury, that I do not believe Amtrak "obnoxiously' prices out of reach, and I will continue to use such when occasion warrants. A day room, when you consider it, simply places rail travel on a "parity" with private auto.

Oh is there any place coming to mind where First Class day travel is "simply not worth it"? Yup, the Paris Metro (if it is still even offered) - did it once "just to say I did it".

>>And why do some passengers (including, it seems, one or two members of this forum) find the mere thought of traveling by coach so completely nauseating?<<

I find coach reasonably comfortable. I have travelled overnight on the Lake Shore in both directions: Springfield to Chicago and Chicago to Buffalo; also on the Capitol from Chicago to Washington. There can be disadvantages such as walkmans from neighboring passengers but the reclining seats really are comfortable.

About 1975 I had a sleeper in the Southern Crescent (as it then was) and it was pleasant (I was just off a trans-Atlantic flight) but I can do without.