Transport of bicycles in LD service

In the world of architectural/engineering design and construction, a world I've worked in since 1989, a reasonable, accurate, estimate of a construction project includes all the labor and materials of the project, plus 10% overhead, plus 10% profit.

So what exactly is Amtrak's overhead, percentage wise, of their income?

And I remember reading somewhere a claim that Amtrak employs more maintenance of way people on the 250?? mile northeast corridor than the 20,000+ mile BNSF employs in its entire system, is that true or close to true?

They obviously employ far, far, far more unionized bike rack cleaners than the BNSF. I believe they are the Royal, Loyal Order of Bike-Racketeers, (RLOBR) Local #42.

^^ I suggest re posting this in the economics thread, and deleting it from bikes, where it is off topic.

I'm on short time and there is a lot to address. I'll make a few basic points and clarify later in necessary.

MikeinNEB:

A few things. The Superliner Bag/Coaches are vacant when they are used in consists with baggage cars. Not all trains have designated bags. Additionally, some trains split and the Bag/ Coaches now become the main bag for that section of the train. Not every coach is a bag/coach. Modifying them for bike racks (which the FRA requires if they aren't boxed so they don't become flying projectiles with kickstands) would cost money and would reduce the space available when they are needed for bag use.

Now that new cars are on the way, it is natural that all of the things that people are lobbying for can be added to the order. As such things like gun storage areas, bike racks and express container areas are incorporated into the design. I wish they had HEP to carry pets, but that added to the expensive and was left out.

However, to add this to existing cars that were built in the mid 1900s would cost money.

Commenting on dwell times, never underestimate what the host railroad will or will not allow. See the New York Fair thread , where it actually took the Governor's intervention to get the stop made.

As for your BNSF comment, I'm not sure what track inspectors on a high speed route has to do with baggage or bikes. Track handles track, passenger services handles bikes.

Arlington:

What are you trying to do with those prices? Good gravy! My vision for the new bikes should work as MikeinNEB stated: the existing manpower should be able to handle the on and off like they did with the Vermonter. The spaces are reserved so crew members should know someone is expecting a bike a such and such stop. They walk to the bike, check the stub and hand it to the passenger and assuming no one gets hit the head, everyone moseys about their business.

I think the existing $10 charge for long distance trains is reasonable and acceptable.

Now, on short distance trains..............a subject for another thread!

ThirdRail7 wrote:What are you trying to do with those prices? Good gravy! My vision for the new bikes should work as MikeinNEB stated: the existing manpower should be able to handle the on and off like they did with the Vermonter. The spaces are reserved so crew members should know someone is expecting a bike a such and such stop. They walk to the bike, check the stub and hand it to the passenger and assuming no one gets hit the head, everyone moseys about their business.
I think the existing $10 charge for long distance trains is reasonable and acceptable.
Now, on short distance trains..............a subject for another thread!

$20, and that's my final offer. The object is to trim operating losses.

It looks like Arlington is going to be severely disappointed...even though I'm a tad bit confused. At any rate, this started today:

Walk-Up Checked Bike Service on the Carolinian


Please allow a brief fair use quote:

Don't let your bike sit at home while you have all the fun — take it with you on your next train trip and explore North Carolina car-free. It's easy with walk-up checked bicycle service. This free service is available on Carolinian Trains 79 and 80 at the Raleigh, Cary, Durham, Burlington, Greensboro, High Point, Salisbury, Kannapolis and Charlotte stations.
Reservations Required

Walk-up bicycle service is free of charge, but advance reservations are required. Make a reservation for your bike at the same time you are booking the rest of your travel here at Amtrak.com, at a Quik-Trak kiosk, by calling 1-800-USA-RAIL or by visiting an Amtrak ticket office.

Now available on the Capitol Limited.

According to today's official Amtrak press release:

Amtrak is expanding the availability of bike service on the Capitol Limited to allow more passengers the convenience of traveling with their bikes. This enhanced service begins on Sept. 14 and provides passengers with a way to travel with their bicycles without the hassles of driving and parking vehicles.

This service is available at all stations along the Capitol Limited route between Washington, D.C., and Chicago. Passengers will be able to roll their bikes along the platform and onto the train and secure their own bikes on a rack in the baggage cars. Amtrak partnered with Adventure Cycling Association and other bicycle and passenger rail groups to form an advisory bicycle task force to oversee this project to establish walk-on bike service on the Capitol Limited.

A related story on Red Eye Chicago shows a picture of what I presume is a Superliner coach-baggage car with the roll-on bike racks installed.

Arlington wrote: $20, and that's my final offer.

And we have a winner!

Well there's a lucky call, but then again, not entirely luck since I know something about how cyclists view their hobby.

My general observation as a person who bikes to work 9months a year myself (but who has rented a bike on vacation, but never taken my own) is that anybody who travels with their bike is doing so for a mix of two reasons that are very valuable to them and against which $20 should seem cheap:
- the comfort of familiar/quality components
- the time-savings of not having to re-assemble and re-adjust

Any of three "cyclist" market segments should be comfortable paying $40/rt:
1) Their bike cost $1500 to $9000. All carbon fiber this and titanium that. Not my demographic, that's for sure, but if you did pay that much you (a) want to get plenty of use out of it and (b) have tuned it such that anything but RORO puts it out of adjustment, and they cannot imagine renting a bike "when they get there"
2) Their bike cost $500 to $800 (this is my demographic: I bought a $1400 bike used for $750). Its a recent lightweight steel alloy. A rental bike might come close as far as quality of components is concerned but a lot of the enjoyment of biking is still in the components and little choices like handlebar height, seat height, crank length, gearing, etc. I'd pay $40 round trip just to avoid an hour of adjustments on a rental and 3 hours of cycling that didn't feel "like me"
3) Somewhere around $300 and below the cyclist is probably better off renting (if available) and not being picky. Still, if they *are* picky, boom, you're right back to a place where *if* you choose to travel with your bike $40 seems reasonable for the time savings and increased pleasure of biking.
(yes, there are gaps in the how-much-your-bike-cost ranges, above, but that's where the segments fade across each other)

People who bring their bikes to a station are also different from people-who-happen-to-bike-while-on-vacation in that to bring your own bike, you either have to have all the car-carrier infrastructure (a big commitment in itself) or you biked to the station (which, for an LD trip, shows you're bike-addicted). So anyone bringing a bike on an LD has a pretty high personal $ value assigned to biking generally, and their bike in particular.

And $40/rt, while high compared to $20/rt, is cheap on a "long" trip compared to daily bike rental rates, which generally run in the $18 to $39/day range.

Here's hoping $20 each way gets enthusiastic use and widespread uptake and is a net-moneymaker of the sort you'd hope that shiny new V-IIs could deliver.

WBBM 780/105.9 aired a Bloomberg segment during the 6AM hour this morning in which Amtrak and the Ro-Ro bicycle service was mentioned.

On bikes, I haven't ridden one in 45 years (I walk 2mi a day). I'd be scared to do so, and when I see one driving, I feel my anxiety level going up. Also whatever happened to the one speed Schwinn I bought when I went back to University of Illinois after service during 1969? I bought it for $10 and served me well for the year I was there to graduate. I simply left it for whoever wanted it.

Perfect idea with the Great Allegheny passage and C&O Canal alongside the Capital Limited.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Also whatever happened to the one speed Schwinn I bought when I went back to University of Illinois after service during 1969? I bought it for $10 and served me well for the year I was there to graduate. I simply left it for whoever wanted it.

If you paid $10, you bought it used. Cheapest new Schwinn bicycle in the 1969 Catalog was $52.95 (which is $344.30 in today's dollars...about what it costs to get a bike nice enough that you'd want to pay $40 per round trip rather than leave it at home, if biking were your thing). It is definitely the case that the modern day equivalent of the pricier Schwinns from 1969 (roughly the $82 Varsity Sport models) translate to $500 bikes today. And if you paid $500 for a new bike--or the $1000+ techno-premium brands founded more recently-- I think you'd be inclined to pay the $40 for RORO service if you plan in advance on biking on your LD trip.

Red Wing wrote:Perfect idea with the Great Allegheny passage and C&O Canal alongside the Capital Limited.

Those two trails are awesome; I biked them from Pitt to DC many times - and was able to "unofficially" take my bike on the Pennsylvanian, Philly to Pitt for one of those trips. The C&O is excellent for a history, transportation, engineering, bicycling, and fly fishing fan. If anyone is planning to bike the C&O, look up and spend the night at the Bed and Bath in Paw Paw WV. Dan the Steelers Fan is a gracious host and one hell of a cook.

Back on topic: I would easily spend an extra $20 each way/segment for my bike to go with me on an Amtrak trip. Just wish the NEC trains could accommodate. I annually bike up to NYC from Philly for the day and still amazed I can't take Amtrak back. The NJT/SEPTA option is avail off peak if there is space available. Rarely an issue for the SEPTA leg but NJT can be iffy - the multi-levels have helped though but still have the wife pick me up.

I agree as well. $20 for a long distance trip isn't a bad price to pay. I wall caveat that with saying that if I'm buying a short distance ticket, $20 seems steep. I've taken the train STL - SPI and STL - JEF with my bike and not paid $20 for my ticket, so doubling that would make it really hard to justify taking the train. I do realize you guys out east have much higher fares than we do, so as a percentage of the ticket, $40 wouldn't be so bad. But for us midwesterners, that could double some of our ticket prices. Hopefully, IL & MO continue to subsidize our $10 bike fares.

Mr. Arlington, I can assure you the bike earlier noted was most definitely used. I did however buy new tires for it.

It served me well, but when I left Champaign for "fame and fortune" (well, to the MILW) after June 1970 graduation, it just stayed behind with a sign on it saying "it's yours", but with its University registration canxd.

skibum77 wrote:I agree as well. $20 for a long distance trip isn't a bad price to pay. I wall caveat that with saying that if I'm buying a short distance ticket, $20 seems steep. I've taken the train STL - SPI and STL - JEF with my bike and not paid $20 for my ticket, so doubling that would make it really hard to justify taking the train. I do realize you guys out east have much higher fares than we do, so as a percentage of the ticket, $40 wouldn't be so bad. But for us midwesterners, that could double some of our ticket prices. Hopefully, IL & MO continue to subsidize our $10 bike fares.

I agree: I suspect that the State Sponsored trains will see the states paying to keep bike costs low for two reasons:
1) On short corridor trips they need to keep the bike a reasonable % of total fare
2) States like VT and VA (who sponsor near-LD length trains where $40 might seem reasonable) specifically want to encourage bike tourism and might be inclined to subsidize.

But on the LDs, where Amtrak is doing it for its own account, there's got to be a bit of profit-maximizing rather than bike-maximizing and that's going to model out better with higher prices (eg.pricing against the alternatives of not going, boxing, or buying a bike rack and driving, all of which $40/rt still beats)