Trackage at Sabin Metal in Scottsville on the R&S

Does anyone know where I could find a trackage diagram of what is now Sabin Metal in Scottsville, NY? The old trackage in the weeds looks sort of odd, like the spacing isn't right, as do the rails through the street. I am interested in what the trackage was like in the plant, as well as what kind if cars were delivered there, and what industry it originally was. Thanks in advance.

Last question first: The present Sabin facility was originally the Ebsary gypsum mine and plant. Primary product was gypsum wall board - early "drywall" more or less.

In the early 60's the facilities were taken over by Ruberoid who continued to operate it until wall board production ceased ca 1965(?).

If you canoe along the creek between the Wheatland Center Rd bridge and the R&S bridge, scrap wallboard is still plainly evident along the south bank. It is remnants of the enormous quantities of damaged product piled along the creek bank there in the 1950's

I've never run across a track diagram for the area. I however vaguely remember the sidings from trips to the wallboard "dump" there with my dad as a kid in the 1950's. (You could pick up damaged wallboard off the dump, cut out the damaged sections and end up with perfectly usable material - though in smaller sheets.) Anyway there was a connection to the B&O (present R&S) main a couple hundred feet south of the Oatka Creek bridge. From there it split into a pair of parallel spurs that ran more or less west, crossed Wheatland Center Road and disappeared into the plant. A 3rd siding ran closer to the creek and a bit lower - it appeared to dead end about at the abandoned sluiceway at the northeast corner of the plant. Evidence of all the crossings can still be seen in the roadway.

I never recall seeing more than a few cars ever spotted in the "yard". Usually it was just a common box car or two. Also as the wallboard operations tapered off, sometimes a piece of MOW equipment or a bad order freight car would be spotted in one of the sidings just far enough in to clear the main. ...FB

for some reason i recall, that garbutt had something to do with the invention of wallboard(drywall, sheetrock) and where the present park is now was the mine?

i have walked thru the park and noticed what appear to be graded sections?

could they have had some narrow gauge going thru there to haul the gypsum?............maybe right to Ebsary? just a hunch..........im prolly wrong


also i always wonder what that bridge to nowhere is in the middle of the park

mark

During the 1960's. when the Ruberoid plant was active, they received rail service several nights a week from the B&O local which ran between Leroy and Rochester. There was the small yard outside the plant across the road which consisited of, I believe, two tracks beside the one leading to the plant and even then was weed grown and mostly unused. A fertilizer dealer sometimes unloaded a tank car during the summer but this was a rare event.

The siding continued into the Ruberoid plant and ran between the calcine mill which was a three story structure behind the office building and the large board plant on the south side. At the far rear of the property was a trail track and then a switch into the board plant/warehouse from the west. The siding inside the ware house was about 8-10 car lengths. Most of the wall board was shipped on B&O bulkhead flats with a few boxcars used.

There was another siding which started at the rear of the property and ran around the Calcine mill on on the north side, but this was largely unused by this time and I only remember one boxcar of supplies being delivered there. The power house on this side had long been converted to gas so there were no more coal deliveries. Until the 1950's, the block plant stood between the siding and the Oatka creek. Until the block plant closed, I believe the siding was doubled tracked and extended accoss the road back to the small yard.

Gypsum block was about 1' X 2' and about 3" wide with hollow tubes running from one end to the other to make it light. It was used in partitions in large buildings and a lot was shipped to New York City in the 1920's when the company was known as Ebsary Gypsum. However, it fell out of favor as a building material and the company quit making it and tore the block plant down.

There was also a stub siding with a bumper post behind the office which had not been used in years. The B&O switcher used to show up about 11:00PM to Midnight and was usually in an out with a car or two in about 20 minutes. They used a SW900 which another crew took to Perry during the day. The through freight to Rochester came by in the mid afternoon and the return run in the late evening before the local came west. I remember one day when the afternoon train slowed and stopped. Soon, a five unit set of F7's appeared nosing down the yard. As soon as the brakeman unlocked the gate, they proceeded to move back into the plant at a crawl and disappeared between the building with flanges sqealing all the way. In a few minutes, the squealing and creaking started up again and they crawled back pushing a car of wallboard, preceeded by the brakeman at a walk. The F's put the car on the train and went on to Rochester. I never found out why a car of wallboard should be such a hot car and I still can't believe they made it in and out.

I spent several summers working at the plant which was filled with ancient, dust spewing equipment which would make OSHEA cringe today. Production went on through the Sixties and the board plant did not shut down until early l970 or 71.

You'll find another gypsum mine along the West Shore ROW, I think, west of Rochester, that did have a narrow guage operation... 3 or 4 years ago when I went to the Lockport show my one and only time, we passed by a display train on a little bit of curved track - 18 inch gauge maybe - between the road and the former ROW. A small diesel and little side dump cars.

You may be thinking of the USG mine in Oakfield. When the mine was in the process of shutting down, several cars and maybe a mine loco, which I don't remember, were hauled out and put on a piece of track across from the plant. They sat there for a while before being hauled off or cut up. They were not on display, just parked until disposed of. There was never any narrow gauge above ground operation although the USG Plant itself had its own 45 ton side rod unit for switching.

Thanks for the information. The yard appears to be three tracks, based on overhead photos from Microsoft Local Search. The middle and one outer track join just inside the fence on the west side of Wheatland Center Road.

The odd thing is that the middle track diverged from one of the outer tracks but then went in both directions - toward the plant but also then to a stub siding back towards the main.

It is hard to tell if the third track, the one along the warehouse type structure on the east side of the road, joined the other two before going into the plant. If not, then there appears to have been no way to get cars off of that track without fouling the main. Yes, I use the term main loosely here - I am aware it was a B&O branch.

I can see from the photos where the track that curved towards the river was located, but the rest is hidden in shadows.

We had a discussion about the narrow gauge railroad awhile back in another theread, check it out:

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=47428

Scot

driftinmark wrote:i have walked thru the park and noticed what appear to be graded sections? could they have had some narrow gauge going thru there to haul the gypsum?............maybe right to Ebsary? just a hunch..........im prolly wrong

You got it Mark! Those graded sections running through the park are remnants of a narrow gage electric mine railroad that ran between the mines on south side of the creek and 2 (or maybe 3?) calcining mills on the north bank of the creek. Can still see abutments, piers, etc for the bridge that carried the rails over the creek. Also you can still find occasional concrete footers with cutoff stubs of steel pipe catenary support poles.

driftinmark wrote: also i always wonder what that bridge to nowhere is in the middle of the park

The origin of the Oatka Park "stone bridge" is a mystery to me too. From it's relatively substantial construction (reinforced concrete) it might somehow have been related to the gypsum mining and processing operations that were once scattered along Oatka Creek in the area.

Might also have been a built as a farm bridge - but it seems way overbuilt for that. Could also have carried a public roadway between Quaker Rd extension and the present Scottsville-Mumford Rd (NY383). However I found no evidence of a roadway or bridge on maps dating as far back as 1900. ...FB

Reference the USGS topographic New York State 1:25000 map, CLIFTON quadrangle first edition dated 1947: Just west of Garbutt on the B&O is shown a small yard adjoining which on the south is a large structure. The yard has a connection to the Pennsylvania Railroad, this spur coming off the Rochester Branch at Scottsville. A rail spur exits the large structure and crosses Oatka Creek. A short distance south of the creek this spur takes a 90 degree turn to the west and continues on for about .25 of a mile and then takes another 90 degree turn to the south where it shortly enters a tunnel with no exit. Must assume that this was the NG rail operation FarmallBob mentioned above, but the topo does not show it as NG. How about the tunnel? Still there? I know from personal observation back in the 1970s that the B&O yard and the large structure just west of Garbutt were gone, but I never explored the area, alas. Was the large structure a transloading facility (my guess)? Lots of questions. Say, nydepot, can you provide any input, especially on the PRR spur? Just east of Garbutt is shown another facility, this served by the PRR as well as by the B&O. FRA records show that the PRR spur, Scottsville-Garbutt, 2 miles, was abandoned in 1944. Must have still been extant when the information for the production of the map was gathered.

it was fun trying to figure out the graded sections when i was walking thru the park, I remember camping there when i was in the scouts in the early seventies, thats when i first saw the old bridge............

i have been back there a few time, mostly fishing, but that bridge amazes me, I have stood in the middle of it trying to figure out where it goes, there seems to be a path to the south, with trees about 40 to 50 years old, to the north , i really cant see any hook up to 383.............maybe it went past 383?

i looked at it on local live and its there, i dont know how to post a link, but its very cool............

im no expert, but it could prolly date to the 20's.......maybe it was part of the narrow gauge rail? from my perspective it seemed a little to narrow for auto traffic, I saw what looked like posts for an edge, but no rail ties, or even shadows.............guess its just a mystery, lol, maybe the library in mumford will yield some clues, when i get a chance.................

thanks FB

mark

been doing a little searching here, found this....................from the filmore newspaper:

1906---A reception was held for the new Houghton students in the new school building. Refreshments were served and a program rendered.

Miss Mary Lyman left for New York City to resume her duties as a teacher.

Miss Evelyn Hoyt was the only district school pupil who entered the spelling contest at the teachers’ institute held in Belfast and was awarded the second prize—three dollars in money.

Construction work was started on a branch of the Pennsylvania railroad from Scottsville to Garbutt, a distance of about four miles.

The Pennsylvania declined to accede to the request of Franklinville citizens to stop its fast trains at that station.



so it looks like the pensy went to garbutt...............ive been looking at local live and think i found a grade, it crosses bowerman road, i cant find where in scottsville it was, looks north of the creek.......it looks like the grade goes all the way to garbutt...............there is a dirt road there now.........my dad used to take me there to fish when i was a little snapper.........i think its part of a sprotsman club now...............this is sooo kewl..................

fb maybe you could have fun with this one?

TB Diamond wrote:Reference the USGS topographic New York State 1:25000 map, CLIFTON quadrangle first edition dated 1947: Just west of Garbutt on the B&O is shown a small yard adjoining which on the south is a large structure.

The "large structure" would have been the Lycoming Calcining Co plant. The BR&P/B&O had 2 or 3 sidings between the main and the north side of the Lycoming plant. Last time I visited (several years ago) there was still a large chimney-type structure still standing on the site.

TB Diamond wrote:The yard has a connection to the Pennsylvania Railroad, this spur coming off the Rochester Branch at Scottsville.

Yes. The PRR Scottsville Branch made it's connection to the BR&P via a spur off the off the BR&P just east of the Lycoming plant.

TB Diamond wrote:A rail spur exits the large structure and crosses Oatka Creek. A short distance south of the creek this spur takes a 90 degree turn to the west and continues on for about .25 of a mile and then takes another 90 degree turn to the south where it shortly enters a tunnel with no exit. Must assume that this was the NG rail operation FarmallBob mentioned above, but the topo does not show it as NG. How about the tunnel? Still there?

That indeed is the NG mining railroad grade that connected the Lycoming plant and the mies. The "tunnel" the grade apparently disappears into is actually the abandoned (and backfilled...) mine portal. Where the grade parallels the creek is where you can still find catenary pole bases.

TB Diamond wrote:Just east of Garbutt is shown another facility, this served by the PRR as well as by the B&O.

That would be the Empire Gypsum/Pittsburgh Plate Glass company plant. They also had a narrow gage (I presume anyway...) mine railroad that ran approximately south from the plant, crossed the creek and went directly into a mine portal almost on the creek bank. The plant foundation is still plainly evident. However traces of the Empire mine railroad, bridge and portal have pretty much disappeared.

TB Diamond wrote:FRA records show that the PRR spur, Scottsville-Garbutt, 2 miles, was abandoned in 1944. Must have still been extant when the information for the production of the map was gathered.

Makes sense. My father in law (who farmed nearby his entire life) recalls the last train running on the Scottsville branch about 1942 or 43.

As a kid exploring the area in the mid-50's I recall the grading, old ties, etc along the ROW were still easy to spot. However when my wife and I walked it with nydepot and several friends a few years ago, only occasional bits of evidence the branch ever existed could be found. ...FB

driftinmark wrote: so it looks like the pensy went to garbutt...............ive been looking at local live and think i found a grade, it crosses bowerman road, i cant find where in scottsville it was, looks north of the creek.......it looks like the grade goes all the way to garbutt...............there is a dirt road there now.........my dad used to take me there to fish when i was a little snapper.........i think its part of a sprotsman club now...............this is sooo kewl..................

fb maybe you could have fun with this one?

Fun indeed!

The Scottsville branch left the PRR Rochester Branch "main" in what's now Canawaugus park. It followed the south bank of the creek until about opposite the "dogleg" on Scott Crescent. It then turned southwest, crossed the creek on a 2-span bridge (abutments/pier still exist...) and ran sort of diagonally to it's crossing at Bowerman Rd. It then followed first the old mill race then the north bank of the creek thru what's now the sportsman's club. Finally it ran the last quarter mile or so into Garbutt through what's now dense woods.

As I mentioned in my previous post , portions of it are pretty well "jungled over" today and difficult to negotiate. But the section thru the sportsman's club is cleared and delightful to walk. ...FB

In 1899, loooks like the pensy had a stub in scottsville -

http://docs.unh.edu/NY/broc99se.jpg

1902 Platt map of the Town of Wheatland ... (No pensy branch)

http://www.rochester.lib.ny.us:2001/bin ... m00217.sid

Then, this 1924 platt map of scottsville shows what looks like a branch continuing on out of scottsville.

http://www.rochester.lib.ny.us:2001/bin ... m00057.sid

Motherload! - Pensy branch to Garbutt....

http://www.rochester.lib.ny.us:2001/bin ... m00054.sid