Components of the Erie Railroad

Just curious, I don't know why the A. & G.W. RR,N.Y. & E. RR ,N.Y.L.E. & W. RR,B.& L.E., B.& J.RR and B. & S.W. RR and the other Erie subsidiaries that ran around this country and NEW YORK STATE mentioned here?

A & GW - ATLANTIC & GREAT WESTERN RR
NY & E - NEW YORK & ERIE RR
N.Y. L. E. & W- NEW YORK LAKE ERIE & WESTERN RR
B & L. E. - BUFFALO & LAKE ERIE RR
B. & J. RR - BUFFALO & JAMESTOWN RR
B. & S. W. RR - BUFFALO & SOUTH WESTERN RR

These 2 railroads in bold ran between BUFFALO,NY and JAMESTOWN,NY it once was known as ERIE RR's BUFFALO AND SOUTHWESTERN division. However, the line is now used by The BUFFALO SOUTHERN RR and The NEW YORK & LAKE ERIE RR .

Was this a question, a speculation or just some rambling? The first part has a question mark at the end of it, but the text isn't asking a question.

Gee, I was just curious forgive me!! About these railways that I mentioned are not listed or is it this they were covered in a earlier post .

Feel free to discuss... you don't need our permission. If you have a question about these roads, or have some info to share, this is the place!

-otto-

Otto, Thank you.

Aren't these few railways I mentioned earlier FALLEN FLAGS and part of the illustrious ERIE RR ?


Also my post was intended as a partial history lesson for some about WESTERN NEW YORK "yes the actual WNY" as I know it the Buffalo,NY area. OK ,I admit it I am a BUFFALONIAN always will be ! ! However,now transplanted to rochester,ny ....

BUFFALO SOUTHERN Railroad and NEWYORK & LAKE ERIE Railroad links below:
http://members.aol.com/buffalosouthern/
http://www.nylerr.com/NYLE.php
Please feel free to click on the two companies links...

I think the only reason for this omission is that the roads in question were incorporated into the Erie system long before any of the current participants in this forum were around (though, in some cases, the coprorate entity itself might continue to exist, if only in the pages of a Moody's Transportation Manual).

Among the mainstream of the railfan fraternity, the term "Fallen Flag" is usually used to refer to the one hundred or so railroads listed as "Class I" by the Interstate Commerce Commission at the end of World War II.

Of that group, only Union Pacific, Kansas City Southern, and Florida East Coast come to mind as survivors, though there may be a few more of the smaller lines that escaped my immediate recollection.

But as Mr. Vondrak pointed out, it's just a matter of semantics; the only foolish question is the one nobody bothers to ask.

Some roads were paper or construction names either leased or purchased by the larger road after completion. Others were roads leased or otherwise arranged for for great periods of time with some being incorporated into the larger road at a much later date (would you believe into the 1950's!!?) or otherwise dissolved. Stauffer's ERIE POWER has some history, as does MEN OF ERIE by Hungerford but I don't think there ever has been a really difinitive Erie history (like Tabers' DL&W) since Mott's 1899 tome!

Also would commend this question and thread to the Erie/EL/DL&W forum for further (and maybe more knowledgeable) comments.

I thought that a Fallen Flag was when a larger railway purchases a smaller or a line that is struggling for existence then purchased from the initial backers of that particular railway was in the planned /started stage along with the length of rail that was laid? And not the group of gentlemen appointed to that railways board of directors by the large conglomerate. If I am not mistaken the fallen flags would be the following ..

A & GW - ATLANTIC & GREAT WESTERN RR / NEW YORK PENNSYLVANIA & OHIO RY.

B. & J. RR - BUFFALO & JAMESTOWN RR
B. & S. W. RR - BUFFALO & SOUTH WESTERN RR

A Fallen Flag is any railroad that is no longer in existance no matter how it dissapeared. A Fallen Flag cannot be a railroad that never ran. But, that would be only my interpretation.

I'm fairly sure the term "fallen flag" was coined by Trains editor David P. Morgan some time in the early 1970's. Trains ran an article listing about two dozen pre-1960 Class I roads that were no longer around, with a single photo and the logo of each. The feature proved to be a hit, and was repeated as other major roads disappeared during the era of mergers.

Going a little further back, I'm pretty sure that the reference to a flag began when a road that featured a flag in its logo departed the scene, though only Wabash and Lehigh Valley come immediately to mind.

Your reference to David P. Morgan, 2nd Trick Op, is very valid as he likened the arrival and departures of trains to the sailing of ships with the priemier train of any road being the "flagship". While a term that was probably around for a long time it is likely that he made it popular in reference to former railroads.

Tom,
as far as the "fallen flags" portion of this forum is concerned, only fairly recent "fallen flags" merit their own forum..
such as Erie, EL, DL&W, LV, New York Central, PRR..etc..

basically fallen flags of the 2nd half of the 20th century...
the railroads that many people still remember.

the reason all the predecessor roads are seldom talked about, like the railroads in the first post of this thread, is because there are THOUSANDS of them!

Erie Lackawanna probably had at least 200 individual roads that made it up..maybe more.
there are far too many to merit their own forum..

of course any of them CAN be discussed!
if you want..
we just seldom mention them, unless a specific topic happens to deal with one of them..

Scot