Tokens

octr202 wrote:Commuter rail I'm sure someday will see changes, but that could very well be a while. When it comes to AFC on buses and subways, the T has a lot of models to follow around the country. If they want to put that same AFC system (i.e., use the same cards) on commuter trains, well, that will be uncharted territory for North America.

I think the easiest way to do it would be to give the conductors wireless mag strip / contactless smart card readers, they do have attachments for PDA's to read magstrips etc already, so the only HARD part would be communicating back to 'base' (wifi repeaters @ every station maybe?) to report 'user xyz -5.50' etc!

however, im not TOO sure as to how the cards (paper) work, as if there is actual value stored and reprogrammed on the card each time (seems like a waste of $$), or if theres a CARD ID #, and its stored in a Database vs each time its used and for how much $$ (would also curb the 'illegal' passes out there if so!)

Edit: http://www.scanningdevices.com/engineer.htm#smartcard , seems they have smartcard and magstrip readers for PALM pda's, so it shouldnt be TOO hard, if the T wanted to implement it!

My understanding is that the actual remaining value is programmed on the card/ticket. This enables the offline bus readers to validate the ticket. However, the busses do sync up wirelessly at night so they could keep a record and upload that. For future verification if it becomes clear of some kind of scam going on.

Also, they do feature "systemwide blocking" according to the manufacturer, so I'm assuming that when the offline fareboxes sync up they also get a list of lost/stolen/invalid tickets that they should not accept even if there is value loaded on them.

Everyone: With the MBTA tokens-How long does the MBTA anticipate selling tokens and as someone mentioned herein do the Charlie Card machines accept them and can they vend a single token-to me a single-ride card as in NYC are just a WASTE! A little trivia-Which car is represented on the T tokens? ANSWER-The 1963 Red Line cars-why they used that die graphic I do not know. Does anyone remember the nickel(almost) sized SW Corridor commemorative tokens from 1987? I recall that they would be sometimes confused as nickels by riders as well as T cashiers. Did many collectors get them as well as I recall myself back in the late 80s? When did the T remove the old Metropolitan Transit Authority tokens from use as well as the SW corridor tokens? Do people leave Charlie Cards around as in places around NYC Metrocards are discarded? I would like to get some myself for my collection. MACTRAXX

MACTRAXX wrote:Everyone: With the MBTA tokens-How long does the MBTA anticipate selling tokens and as someone mentioned herein do the Charlie Card machines accept them and can they vend a single token-to me a single-ride card as in NYC are just a WASTE! A little trivia-Which car is represented on the T tokens? ANSWER-The 1963 Red Line cars-why they used that die graphic I do not know. Does anyone remember the nickel(almost) sized SW Corridor commemorative tokens from 1987? I recall that they would be sometimes confused as nickels by riders as well as T cashiers. Did many collectors get them as well as I recall myself back in the late 80s? When did the T remove the old Metropolitan Transit Authority tokens from use as well as the SW corridor tokens? Do people leave Charlie Cards around as in places around NYC Metrocards are discarded? I would like to get some myself for my collection. MACTRAXX

Man that's a lot of questions in a small space.

The tokens will be sold at some stations at least through the end of the year. When you start hearing about the downtown stations being converted (Park St., DTX, GC, State) you'll know the end is near. I don't know how long they will allow the ticket machines to accept tokens. I would suspect that once the conversion is complete, they'll want to eliminate the tokens as soon as possible...since each token represents, essentially, an outstanding free ride (like airline frequent flier miles) liability.

As for why 1963 cars are on the tokens, well, the MBTA was formed in 1964, so those would have been the newest cars on the system at the time. Makes sense. Also, probably no reason to scrap a perfectly good token dies just to update for new cars.

The old MTA tokens are still in circulation. I have three or four at home in my small pile of tokens.

And yes, although others who ride to converted stations see this more than I do, apparently the Charlie Tickets generate all the same disposal problems as MetroCards, unfortunately.

savebowdoin wrote:One big difference between CharlieTickets and MTA's single-ride metrocards is the quality... The single ride cards in NYC are simple paper with printing, while our Charlie Tickets (which are given out whether its a one-ride or monthly pass) are printed glossy and color-heavy, more like the yellow multi-ride metrocards in NYC. Will this change once the Charlie Cards are introduced? Seems to me like a waste of money to put all that color and effort into the tickets just for them to be thrown out after one or two uses. (Will there be an introduction of a single-ride, simpler paper ticket in addition to the current ticket? Are the new TVM's designed to handle more than one card stock?)
One more, if anyone knows: Where will the CharlieCards be sold once they are available -- will you buy them right from the TVM's or will you have to order them online or at a specific location?

Charlie tickets are actually not like a regular metrocard at all. Metrocards are plastic while charlie tickets are paper. The metrocards are much more durable and re-usable. If you try to refill a charlie ticket it just takes your old one and gives you a brand new one which in my opinion is a huge waste.

While I'm ranting about the charlie ticket can I complain about how completely counter-intuitive it is to put the card into the fairgate with the picture of charlie facing down! You know how many people get stuck at the gates because they don't realize they are inserting the card the wrong way.

savebowdoin wrote:One big difference between CharlieTickets and MTA's single-ride metrocards is the quality... The single ride cards in NYC are simple paper with printing, while our Charlie Tickets (which are given out whether its a one-ride or monthly pass) are printed glossy and color-heavy, more like the yellow multi-ride metrocards in NYC. Will this change once the Charlie Cards are introduced? Seems to me like a waste of money to put all that color and effort into the tickets just for them to be thrown out after one or two uses. (Will there be an introduction of a single-ride, simpler paper ticket in addition to the current ticket? Are the new TVM's designed to handle more than one card stock?)
One more, if anyone knows: Where will the CharlieCards be sold once they are available -- will you buy them right from the TVM's or will you have to order them online or at a specific location?

I think you hit some of it on the nose there -- I suspect that the TVMs are only stocked with one type of ticket stock, hence the uniformity of the tickets/passes. As long as one machine prints both passes and tickets on the same material, that's a trade-off that has to be made. Perhaps down the road there could be sort of "rush ticket machines" where you just put in your 1.25 (or whatever the fare is) and get a ticket spit right out for one time use.

Ok I'm going to try and clarify a few things here to best my knowledge.

1) CharlieTickets actually have a layer of plastic in the middle of a pre-printed color image and a thermal paper on the back (where the info is printed) They are quite durable, you can bend them back and forth, yet still inexpensive to produce.

2) I think the T will most likely not offer a "single-ride only" machine as this is what has led to tons of single ride metro cards being left on the floor. While right now people are doing this, once the whole system is the same they are really pushing for people to load multiple rides on one card (and eventually get a CharlieCard).

3) The cash TVM's hold 4 rolls of CharlieTicket media. I'm not sure if they can control what roll is used (IE to dispense $1.25 tickets on a diff. media).

4) When they are available, the TVM's will be able to dispense CharlieCards.

savebowdoin wrote:

danib62 wrote: Charlie tickets are actually not like a regular metrocard at all. Metrocards are plastic while charlie tickets are paper. The metrocards are much more durable and re-usable. If you try to refill a charlie ticket it just takes your old one and gives you a brand new one which in my opinion is a huge waste.

I was speaking about the single-use paper metrocards, not the more durable yellow ones. I was inquiring whether there will ultimately be a basic paper, one-use version of the CharlieTicket rather than the more elaborate one that exists today. The current CharlieTicket is NOT nearly as durable as the yellow metrocard, but it seems to be more expensive to produce than a one-ride ticket should be.

Your point is another good one; however I believe that the T's ultimate idea on this is that the Charlie Cards will be the ideal multi-use format. If this is the case, the CharlieTickets should be simpler and less expensive to produce. I'll put this in a chart form:

NEW YORK CITY (Current Fare Levels):
Single-Use --- IIRC, paper MetroCards (are they called something else?)
Multi-Use/Passes --- Yellow, durable MetroCards

BOSTON (Fare Levels as of 2007):
Single-Use/Multi-Use/TVM-Bought Passes --- CharlieTicket (as we see today)
Multi-Use/Passes --- CharlieCards

I Propose:
Single-Use --- simpler paper CharlieTickets
Multi-Use/TVM-bought Passes --- CharlieTicket (as we see today)
Multi-Use/Passes --- CharlieCards

I think this makes sense.... lol

Are the different MetroCards in NYC sold in the same machines, or different ones? I think that the T probably has a lot of stations that won't justify several different types of machines -- probably best to have one type of machine that does everything, so you have more redundancy when one or more fail.

I know in DC, and I think in Chicago too, the smart cards are sold in different machines than the paper farecards. DC Metro I know has fare machines where you can only buy/add to paper cards, as well as ones that vend paper farecards AND will add money to a smart card. To buy a SmartTrip card requires using a seperate, stand alone machine that only sells you a ST card.

octr202 wrote: Are the different MetroCards in NYC sold in the same machines, or different ones? I think that the T probably has a lot of stations that won't justify several different types of machines -- probably best to have one type of machine that does everything, so you have more redundancy when one or more fail.

Single-ride and multi-ride metrocards are sold in the same machines.

p.s. I still haven't seen an answer as to why they don't re-use old charlie tickets and just add value to them. If someone wants to re-use one it should let them.

danib62 wrote:

octr202 wrote: Are the different MetroCards in NYC sold in the same machines, or different ones? I think that the T probably has a lot of stations that won't justify several different types of machines -- probably best to have one type of machine that does everything, so you have more redundancy when one or more fail.

Single-ride and multi-ride metrocards are sold in the same machines.

p.s. I still haven't seen an answer as to why they don't re-use old charlie tickets and just add value to them. If someone wants to re-use one it should let them.

I haven't tried to do so, but T documents about them does say the tickets can be refilled. But, there's not a lot of incentive to if you don't have to pay extra to get a new ticket. It'll probably also be a while before some riders get out of the habit of just buying one fare each time they go to ride.

danib62 wrote: p.s. I still haven't seen an answer as to why they don't re-use old charlie tickets and just add value to them. If someone wants to re-use one it should let them.

You can technically do this. If you put a CharlieTicket in the vending machine before you do anything it will add the value you select and the remaining on the ticket together. The silly thing is that it actually prints a different card (with the current initial value and purchase location) so it really isn't recycling at all.

As for right now, there are only 13 stations (and 12 stops on the Silver Line Washington Street) that accept CharlieTickets. I think once more stops are converted and people understand it better they will put more that $1.25 on a ticket. Also the T is banking on about 50% of the ridership having a CharlieCard (which can store both a pass and stored value at the same time... think of a bus pass with a few extra bucks on it in case you need to take the subway). These cards are plastic and reusable over time. Each month if you get a subway pass you won't need to get a new card, just reload it on the same card you have. Eventually it is supposed to be like Washington DC where your employer can get your card # and the pass is automatically loaded each month and deducted from your pay (pre-tax, unless of course your employer gives you a pass as a benefit).

JS