Southern Tier downgraded?

There's an article in the current issue of Trains magazine about the portion of the NS Southern Tier route between Port Jervis and Binghamton being downgraded. Seems that one of the last remaining rail links to the region could be headed toward the same fate as the DL&W cutoff in NJ.

No, those tracks won't be abandoned anytime soon..... If anything NYSW will just downgrade the signal system and go form D from PJ to Bingo... They will still run trains over it. The SU-100/SU-99 are tri weekly and some are over 100 cars long with their lucrative garbage/debris business......

I wouldn't worry just yet.....


Steve

njt4172 wrote:No, those tracks won't be abandoned anytime soon..... If anything NYSW will just downgrade the signal system and go form D from PJ to Bingo... They will still run trains over it. The SU-100/SU-99 are tri weekly and some are over 100 cars long with their lucrative garbage/debris business......

I wouldn't worry just yet.....


Steve

I'd agree, but I am concerned about the trackage, etc. Much of the line is now 35 mph, and Bingo crews routinely died on the law when the speed was 50 mph.

I have only personally seen a train on there once in my life. The signals are barely ever on anyways, so it isn't that surprising. Considering the long time between trains, it makes sense.

Just can't compete with (an upgraded) River Line.

The Port Jervice to Binghampton section has never been above 40 mph for the last 20 years due to the curves, not track consitions. Not much you can do with the curves.
At 40 MPH on the teir, the road trains averaged 4 hrs BD to PJ, 2hrs PJ to PR, and 2hrs PR to Little Ferry for a total of 8 hrs.
I don't think you have to woory about the trackage, in the STB filing the contract between CNY and NS says that for the next two years or so it must be maintained to 30 mph, and by the end of 2008 it mustbe maintained to 40 mph with no more than 10 percent slow ordered.
WN

Although "low speed" trains still seem to scream by at what looks like greater speed.

Signals (like many CR era lines) are approach lit, hence off 99.9% of the time.

BlockLine_4111 wrote:Just can't compete with (an upgraded) River Line.

More like can't compete with a well crewed ex-Pennsy main....

Tom H>

The EL as it approached its demise, ran trains for UPS Chicago to Croxton (NY Metropolitan area) faster than PRR or NYC or PC. The line was fairly well maintained, had high and wide clearances, lower summits, shorter distances, and very dedicated crews and management. LV and NKP had a similar relationship which provided excellent service against PC. On the minus side, it had more summits, more curves, and a lot of single track. Still they could get the job done when needed. CR was a RED & GREEN railroad at first and very dedicated to the preservation of the Pennsylvania and New York Central structures. Therefore whatever the EL or the LV or the CNJ had to offer was discarded and only the MAIN LINE and the WATER LEVEL routes were supported and marketed. As for the others, CR didn't want them but kept them so no one else could get them because CR knew the value of these other lines in times of tough competition. CR thus became successful enough and attractive enough to be sold to private enterprise. My comments are not to degrade any actions by CR but rather to show how and why they did what they did.

Just look at Bingo or Gang Mills the last couple weeks to see how the Tier as a whole isn't competative. This'll change of course.

My remark was more along the lines of with NS favoring the Main through PA, the ex-NYC isn't any threat to it. Right now the Tier is more a Buffalo Secondary, with a primary purpose of catching any NE/SE traffic that the Pennsy never had. In time this could be a real threat to CSX's NE traffic; but capacity and crews aren't here now.

Tom H>

Last fall NSC and CSX were granted approval to take direct control of their respective parts of Conrail. That change allowed NSC to implement changes in the newly controlled assets. One asset NSC has little interest in is the entire Southern Tier Line.

Now NSC is using various schemes to begin its exit from this property. We see the CNY RR taking over operating the line from Binghamton to PJ and CNJ taking the D&H rights from Binghamton west to Buffalo.

NSC is making lots of money. Since Sept 2003 the stock has more than doubled. They are very effecient operators with financial savvy.

NSC is getting out of this line piece by piece. What does the company need it for? The line originates very little traffic and is in generally poor condition compared to the former PA main line.

Meg, is it safe to say that a group like DO or LAL, being smaller companies rooted in NYS, would have an easier time getting NYS funds for rehab and development, than say, CSX or NS, that are based out of state and concentrate their marketing efforts elsewhere? Also, many people have asked why this CNYR group has to acquire the Southern Tier trackage and not NYSW directly- would you say that NYSW is trying to maintain its status as a regional, or they are just trying to insulate themselves from this deal altogether? I'm interested in your opinion, since you seem to understand these deals from a legal standpoint better than I do.

-otto-

I'll bud in Otto, and suggest that the primary reason for the CNY ploy was to try and minimise the Walter Rich appearance. Maybe the recent rash of anti-Rich media (political questions, etc.) was enough to try a low-key 'unknown' that didn't have any immeadiately obvious connection to Rich (unlike the NYSW does).

Tom H>

So the signals are either off, or in approach? Interesting. The only train i saw was a w/b autorack with a CSX AC4400, and a NYSW B40. This line used to be doubletracked, but it was reduced to single track near that plant in Hancock.

I guess I might as well add my "two cents worth" to this. Walter Rich is a
genius for keeping a line operating against most odds, for restoring when
it is necessary and for inovating when possible. He certainally has a
proven track record. The N.Y.S. & W. was nearly hopeless when the
Delaware Otsego took it over and turned things around. Would anybody
care to guess where this line and the former L. & H. R. below Warwick be
today if the Delaware Otsego had not come into the picture when they did?
Walter Rich is one of very few who stood up to the mighty Conrail and
actually accomplished something. There was plenty of doubt in the early
to mid 1980's when the Sparta project became real.
As for the Southern Tier between Port Jervis and Binghamton, it might
well have been a candidate for abandonment had the N.Y.S. & W. not been
in the background with their trackage rights agreement.
Today, the N.Y.S. & W. covers a good piece of territory from North Jersey
to Syracuse and has friendly connections with the NS, CP and CSX.
I think this deal probably saved the Southern Tier for a long time.
Noel Weaver