Silver Star Downgrade and Diner Discussion

I had a wonderful dinner on American Airlines yesterday: warm mixed nuts and a drink before dinner, filet mignon, shrimp, unlimited wine, unlimited bread choices, and salad as the main course, and ice cream for dessert (with drinks continuing). It was all served on a tray at my seat. There were at least two choices for the main course, but I had logged into my reservation list before the flight and ordered the main course online before the flight. It certainly beat my last dinner on the Crescent, which was good but was served with attitude and no alcohol (the sleeping car attendant refused to sell a glass of wine to me (at the normal price) as part of dinner).

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If American Airlines can serve delicious gourmet food from a galley on a plane, and if Amtrak serves meals on Acela Express, why can't Amtrak do this on long distance trains? I am still not seeing why a dining car and dining car kitchen crew is needed, and why there is no online ordering.

I can see having a first class lounge car where meals are served out of a galley, but that's all that I see a need for.

The question seems to be one of logistics and provisioning systems. Amtrak has to travel for much longer and much further between stops at terminals with commissaries. I suspect they look at the airlines with great envy for their ability to deliver first-class amenities with the relative ease permitted by airport support systems.

Good point. Wouldn't it be cheaper to work out something with catering companies at airports near Amtrak lines (DFW, New Orleans, CLT, ATL), etc., even if that took some capital costs to retrofit Amtrak cars to handle catered meals and a higher per-meal cost due to delivery logistics, than ordering new dining cars and running them on trains?

I'd be very happy with a reserved first class lounge car on Amtrak- like first-rate trains apparently used to have- and meals served there from a galley. Maybe a split sleeper-lounge car (which would allow more sleeper space for sale, in addition to eliminating the expensive kitchen)?

At least Amtrak should get with the program on online ordering.

I think the real option for a big change would be a national catering contract with a company like Sodexho that could prepare meals wherever it was most convenient for them and then deliver them to the trains at the location that works best for Amtrak. That would potentially relieve Amtrak of the need to run/stock their own company commissaries. In some or many cases the vendor potentially could or would use existing facilities that are close to airports.

I think the fundamental issue at hand is that Amtrak simply has not been able to maximize economies of scale in their foodservice operations. They are spread out so far and so thin that their commissary expenses are nearly impossible to effectively control.

And you win the brass ring. If Amtrak was operating 3 - 5 times as many day trains on their routes they probably could get the kind of catering that we are talking about.
Most of the airline top flight caterers in the USA probably are located at just a few airports nationwide. Would expect the locations that have several international or flights over 5 - 6 hours are going to fit in that category. May be some exceptions of course.

Believe that European and japan HSR has that density ?

A) I thought Amtrak already used a national catering support company. Maybe I'm just thinking of unprepped or semi-prepped food supply from Sysco, Aramark or some such.
B) NYP (JFK, LGA, NWK), WAS (DCA, BWI), BOS, CHI (ORD, MDW), NOL, MIA, LAX, SFO (Oakland), SEA and PDX. Plenty of Airport commissary providers, not even counting the intermediate major cities. I'd be surprised if 60 Mass hadn't considered the idea.
C) Unreliability is the problem, unfortunately. Maybe Amtrak just needs to attract a 24-hr grocery store to set up shop near each of its support bases! (Lean Cuisine for everyone! )

I think you are correct, Andrew. Amarak or some such name.

Believe it's ARAMARK a Food service and vending machine product supplier that currently runs the Commissary operation
for Amtrak.

Amtrak has as many hubs as most individual airlines. Where the difference lies is the time it takes a plane to fly between them vs the time it takes a train to run between them. For airliners that time can be listed in single digit hours while trains take double digit hours upto single digit days. Most flights get away with snacks, some require a meal, and few need two meals, while most trains require at least one meal, most long distance trains require two meals, most transcontinental trains need at least three meals, and there are a few requiring four meals.

The speed differential between trains and planes is just too great for long distance trains to use the airline food providing scheme.
But short, regional, higher speed trains could follow the airline food scheme successfully.

Aramak is a very large company with locations in 22 countries. They are located all over the place in the USA. Would it be a monumental task to re-stock long-distance trains? I doubt it. VIA rail does it with the Canadian. I'm sure it all boils down to cost per tray. Anybody know how that gets priced out?

I have to wonder how many know of Aramark's first venture with railroads. Well, guess what; is was for the design and installation of the vending machinery for the SP Automat cars. While at the time the concern was named ARA Services, it was nevertheless the predecessor.

I don't know how much further railroad food service sank below that level. Even considering my vile Short Ribs on Auto Train, Amtrak F&B has a way to go.

And finally, even though Aramark's client list includes "roach Coaches" as well as "correctional institutions", any of these industrial caterers will provide whatever a large concern specifies.

Come to think of it, were things any better when Gate Gourmet held the contract?

Amtrak needs to hire whichever company does American Airlines' first and business class catering-- I still can't get over how fantastic dinner was on Saturday!

I too have enjoyed excellent food on airline business/first class and wondered why that product and operation couldn't be adapted to trains.

I don't follow your explanation, electricon -- even if trains run slower, both trains and planes hit mid to large cities 1-3 times /day at which time restocking should be easy, especially via rolling carts. I don't think spoilage is the issue...refrigerators can certainly hold food fresh for a day or more. Remember Pacific flights are often 15-20 hours.

Trains do have the advantage that weight and volume are not so critical. Trains have the disadvantage of unreliable timekeeping and lower economies of scale. Still, with some investment and clever operational changes, I think a much better (and hopefully more economical) food service is possible.

Rockingham Racer wrote:Aramak is a very large company with locations in 22 countries. They are located all over the place in the USA. Would it be a monumental task to re-stock long-distance trains? I doubt it. VIA rail does it with the Canadian. I'm sure it all boils down to cost per tray. Anybody know how that gets priced out?

Just because VIA does anything in particular is not a testimony to that thing's cost-effectiveness

rohr turbo wrote:I too have enjoyed excellent food on airline business/first class and wondered why that product and operation couldn't be adapted to trains.

I don't follow your explanation, electricon -- even if trains run slower, both trains and planes hit mid to large cities 1-3 times /day at which time restocking should be easy, especially via rolling carts. I don't think spoilage is the issue...refrigerators can certainly hold food fresh for a day or more. Remember Pacific flights are often 15-20 hours.

Trains do have the advantage that weight and volume are not so critical. Trains have the disadvantage of unreliable timekeeping and lower economies of scale. Still, with some investment and clever operational changes, I think a much better (and hopefully more economical) food service is possible.

Pacific flights while long, aren't 40 hours long as Amtrak's transcontinental train.
Empire Builder to Seattle = 46 hours, 2205 rail miles, 5 meals
California Zephyr = 52 hours, 2438 rail miles, 6 meals
Southwest Chief = 45 hours, 2265 rail miles, 4 meals
Sunset Limited = 46 hours, 1995 rail miles, 5 meals

*Texas Eagle all the way to L.A. = 65 hours, 7 meals*
*Note: Texas Eagle transcontinental cars use Cross Country Club to San Antonio, then use Sunset Limited Diner from San Antonio to Los Angeles. That's why I placed an * on it, not sure it's a fair example for this discussion.

Whereas I'll agree food can be loaded at stops along the way, at the refueling stops at least without causing scheduling delays, I would rather prefer seeing the limited on board staff servicing customers than restocking food onto the train. The on board staff could already be busy refueling, replenishing water, and servicing waste tanks during the refueling stops. There used to be extra diner staff, dishwasher and second cook, aboard these trains that could be used to load food supplies along the way,, but that staff isn't aboard the trains anymore.