Silver Star Downgrade and Diner Discussion

leviramsey wrote:Also supporting the $900k/month savings estimate: F&B loss went from $13.008 million to $12.169 million, a decrease of c. $839 thousand.

F40CFan wrote: Ridership numbers I've seen for October-December 2015 shows a 13.5% decrease in passengers on the Star versus an 8.4% decline on the Meteor over 2014.

For October-January, it's 13.3% decrease in total passenger count for the Star vs. 7.9% for the Meteor (January itself was -12.8% for the Star and -6.2% for the Meteor). However, for sleeper passengers (the ones most affected by the loss of the diner), the Star's ridership held up far better than the Meteor's:

For the Star:
October-January ridership (FY2015 -> FY2016): 135,238 -> 117,205 (-13.3%)
October-January sleeper ridership (FY2015 -> FY2016): 10,734 -> 11,206 (+4.4%)
October-January coach ridership (FY2015 -> FY2016): 124,504 -> 105,999 (-14.9%)

And for the Meteor:
October-January ridership (FY2015 -> FY2016): 114,969 -> 105,864 (-7.9%)
October-January sleeper ridership (FY2015 -> FY2016): 14,728 -> 13,638 (-7.4%)
October-January coach ridership (FY2015 -> FY2016): 100,241 -> 92,226 (-8.0%)

If one assumes that the diner is the differentiator between the Star and Meteor, this implies that that the diner isn't important to sleeper passengers but is to coach passengers....

While it a positive increase in sleeper passengers for the Star with the cafe substitution for the diner, it still trails the Meteor in total sleeper passengers. I call that a mix result.

^ The Star sleepers always trailed the Meteor's when both had diners. Now, without a diner and with lower fares, the Star trails by less. It is a ridership, op cost, and profit win, and a revenue "no diff"--that is an unmixed win. There is an unmeasurable "rail fan/historic" loss, but that's about it, about on par with the elimination of mail trains.

Just returned from a round trip on the Meteor. Amtrak sent me a survey which asked among other things:

1) Where you aware of the lack of dining car on the Star

2) Did you chose the Meteor because it had a diner (yes!!!)

BTW - the Meteor diner was packed and overcrowded. We had a 45 minute wait until seated for the 6:30 sitting. They ran out of the special (Salisbury Steak) and ice cream by the second sitting. They could have used two diners on our trip!

Meteor running out of food ?. No excuse. How much revenue does Amtrak loose ? If not more food because it cannot be served then more dining car staff is needed. There needs to be a very sharp accounting of the way the diners are run. If coach passengers are unable to get into diner then something is greatly wrong.

Honestly, my opinion is, sleeper passengers should have priority seating, and coach is served as available. I'd be pissed if I paid for a sleeper, and had to wait. As a coach passenger, I'd understand. There is a café car. In another thread, they're talking about a low budget Amtrak service; coach on an LD to me is budget. And I've done that. And I've been able to get into the diner. Now, with no diner, it's possible more coach have switched to the Meteor, the demand is higher, and the Star is getting that "low budget" coach crowd. I'd hate to see the café on that train.

I still think that using part of the cafe as a table car is the best solution. That gives an extra six or seven tables and 18 (+2 wheelchair) to 28 seats, which bumps dining capacity to 64-74 patrons per seating, from a maximum of 46 in V-I #4800 and the future V-II diners. To reduce crowding in the cafe, Amtrak staff can impose time limits per purchase on the tables opposite the diner (coach-side) during rush times.

Now the question is, can the kitchen cook fast enough and keep enough stock with half again as many patrons? And, can the cafe still function effectively without half the seating from 7-9, 11-1, and 5-8?

Mods: apologies if this is getting beyond the scope of the Star diner.

We also have the Diner Economics Thread, but a discussion of the Silvers' no-diner/crowded diner as manifested on the Star and Meteor seems on-topic here to me.

east point wrote:Meteor running out of food ?. No excuse. How much revenue does Amtrak loose ? If not more food because it cannot be served then more dining car staff is needed. There needs to be a very sharp accounting of the way the diners are run.

Little, I would think. With the special sold out people presumably purchased other items. Whatever Amtrak lost on ice cream would hardly be justified by this "sharp accounting" which an actual person or persons would have to undertake. Physical restaurants run out of things too. It happens.

Using café cars for extra seating appears doable. If trains get significantly longer over time some coach and sleeper attendants could serve both diner and café. Would require another cook and some where extra stocking of sold out items.

Mackensen wrote:

east point wrote:Meteor running out of food ?. No excuse. How much revenue does Amtrak loose ? If not more food because it cannot be served then more dining car staff is needed. There needs to be a very sharp accounting of the way the diners are run.

Little, I would think. With the special sold out people presumably purchased other items. Whatever Amtrak lost on ice cream would hardly be justified by this "sharp accounting" which an actual person or persons would have to undertake. Physical restaurants run out of things too. It happens.

But when a local restaurant runs out of something - they can send someone to a nearby grocery store to buy what is needed. That is not an viable option for Amtrak.

With 24 hour Wal*Marts,access to grocery items and fresh foodstuffs is not a problem as long there's a servicing stop
and somebody that can get whats needed before the train arrives,after the Chef messages ahead as to what is needed.

At staffed stations,an "emergency food run" to the closest grocery is not uncommon at times.

OR Aramark meets the train at the servicing stop with the most popular menu items on the truck, to restock the Cafe car on the Star
and the Diner and Lounge cars on the Meteor as needed

It's not like the Chef should have to drop everything n close the kitchen while he takes inventory of the fridge and the shelves. LOL. A computer should track each order as it's logged in. Of course it knows how many passengers of various sorts, sleeper or coach, senior discount and child fares, whatever are on board and for how long. So even before the Chef realizes he's running out, the computer will have a solid estimate of how many more meals are needed.

This info becomes an order that can be electronically sent to a future stop, to a catering company or even a big restaurant. I could imagine an Applebee's or Chili's could handle this. Needed: A large refrigerator with enuff space for the "Amtrak items", (frozen items might or might not be heated in the restaurant kitchen), and a delivery car and driver to meet the train. Of course, the supplier would also get electronic info on the train's location and estimated arrival time. Crew change or other stations with padding in the dwell time would work best.

I know Amtrak has had trouble getting a good Point of Purchase order-and-pay system. But one day it will get it together.

Meanwhile, I'm hoping that the Viewliner II diners coming soonish will have just a bit more galley storage, enuff to keep favorite items from selling out on the Eastern LD trains at least.

The Mass. Bay Railroad Enthusiasts March Callboy has an article by Sherry Kennedy reprinted from CruiseMaven.com.

She rode the Silver Star during the holiday season in sleeper and found that there was one cafe attendant struggling to serve long lines coming from two directions (coaches and sleepers). She remembered she could ask the sleeper attendant to bring her the food. He cheerfully did but was gone 45 minutes because he stopped to help the cafe attendant, for which she didn't fault him.

She commented that the train needs either two cafe cars or two attendants.

Arlington wrote:(I don't begrudge the chef or waiter their high wages, but that doesn't stop me from noticing that they've priced themselves out of the market).

If we are now calling waitstaff wages "high," our society is hosed. The problem is not the waitstaff, the problem is stagnating wages to the point where having a standard meal at a sit-down could be considered unaffordable.

ryanov wrote:The problem is not the waitstaff, the problem is stagnating wages to the point where having a standard meal at a sit-down could be considered unaffordable.

I don't see how even folks with briskly-rising wages would consider it a good deal to cover Amtraks' costs (which I blame on logistic constraints that railroads and airlines shared, but which Amtrak, by not having pre-prepared meals, does even worse). Star Sleeper riders at least have shown themselves not just unwilling to pay the $100 (that Amtrak needs to, at best, break even on diner food), but happy and more numerous to simply book a sleeper without food (even as coach air travelers have been doing for years). I don't see how you go wrong allowing your fares and features to be led by customer choices in this way. Instead of being bummed that diner food is unafforable, how about we celebrate sleeper travel having been made affordable?