Running coaches backward

With the Vermonter backup changing soon, I was thinking about coaches running backward is not optimal.

Where does Amtrak routinely run coaches backward with passengers inside for any distance at any speed?

Downeaster coaches are set up one half facing one way and the other
half facing the other way, so about half of the seats on every train are
running backwards.

Vermonter and Keystone are also Half & Half seating.

The Pennsylvanian runs with coaches backwards between PHL & NYP.

The Downeaster has some coaches in a backwards setup because it runs in push-pull operation (engine on each end and it can't turn consist at terminals).

The Keystones change direction so hence you have coaches turned their too.

But since the Vermonter is no longer doing a reverse direction at Palmer, which was the cause of "running backwards," Amtrak should be able to run all seats forward provided they can "turn" the consist in St. Albans, which has been done before. Since the Vermonter becomes a NEC train, I would think Amtrak is going to want to try and have all coach seats facing the same direction when they re-route come Dec 29th.

jp1822 wrote:The Downeaster has some coaches in a backwards setup because it runs in push-pull operation (engine on each end and it can't turn consist at terminals).

The Keystones change direction so hence you have coaches turned their too.

But since the Vermonter is no longer doing a reverse direction at Palmer, which was the cause of "running backwards," Amtrak should be able to run all seats forward provided they can "turn" the consist in St. Albans, which has been done before. Since the Vermonter becomes a NEC train, I would think Amtrak is going to want to try and have all coach seats facing the same direction when they re-route come Dec 29th.

Do the Keystones that end in 30th Street have the split coaches or only those that go to New York?

But since the Vermonter is no longer doing a reverse direction at Palmer, which was the cause of "running backwards," Amtrak should be able to run all seats forward provided they can "turn" the consist in St. Albans, which has been done before.

On days the Vermonter runs with a cab car, the consist is turned at St. Albans. Lately that's been at at least a couple of days a week. While it has run cab car first north of Palmer on a few occasions, the crews really don't like it, especially with the increased speed south of White River Jct.

In spring 1995, when the Vermonter was new, and combined with a Boston corridor train at New Haven, the cab car was used only between Palmer and Springfield. The southbound train would pull onto the Conn River Line on the NE connecting track, back across (locomotive first...) to Spring interlocking and then head into the platform track. The cab car would trail the combined train south of New Haven. The two-way seating wasn't implemented until later in 1995, when the cab-car-first operation was extended to New Haven. The cab car was attached to the rear of the corridor train, with the new "Vermonter" Baggage car trailing.

To my recollection the Surfliners have half-and-half seating because of the reversal in Los Angeles. Even many of the 500-series trains (which don't operate west of Los Angeles) have such a short turnaround in San Diego that it would be necessary to turn the seats -- and there wouldn't even be time for that, especially in the case of a late arrival -- rather than wye the train because the only available wye Is more than halfway to Old Town and I believe involves two grade crossings in addition to the two on the main line between the station and the wye.

Empire Service trains 281 and 283 are wyed on CSX a few miles south of Niagara Falls and backup the last few miles into stub-end tracks at the station. Backup move speed appears to be approximately 30 to 45 MPH.

Adirondack train 69 will wye and backup approximately two miles on CN into Montreal Central Station on those trips when it has a private car that will be parked inside the station. Speed for the backup move appears to be about 30 MPH.

zerovanity59 wrote:

jp1822 wrote:The Downeaster has some coaches in a backwards setup because it runs in push-pull operation (engine on each end and it can't turn consist at terminals).

The Keystones change direction so hence you have coaches turned their too.

But since the Vermonter is no longer doing a reverse direction at Palmer, which was the cause of "running backwards," Amtrak should be able to run all seats forward provided they can "turn" the consist in St. Albans, which has been done before. Since the Vermonter becomes a NEC train, I would think Amtrak is going to want to try and have all coach seats facing the same direction when they re-route come Dec 29th.

Do the Keystones that end in 30th Street have the split coaches or only those that go to New York?

They do.

I think the same consists are used on the ones that end in 30th street as well as those that do not, hence the uniformity.

Everyone:

Back in 1980 the engine change point of trains 40 and 41 - the Broadway Limited (later the Three Rivers) was changed from Harrisburg to Philadelphia and as far as I know that was the first Amtrak train to be operated "backwards" NYP - PHL...

MACTRAXX

IIRC, in the early days of Amtrak, 5/6 ran backwards from the seating perspective between Denver and Cheyenne since the train arrived and departed the same end of the station at both of those stations (power ran around the train at both). Once it started running via Borie instead of Cheyenne, it changed to what I assume is still the present day practice of being wyed at Denver (since the only time I rode 5 through Denver was in 1983 (although I will again in 2015)), backing in going west and backing out going east.

MACTRAXX wrote:Everyone:

Back in 1980 the engine change point of trains 40 and 41 - the Broadway Limited (later the Three Rivers) was changed from Harrisburg to Philadelphia and as far as I know that was the first Amtrak train to be operated "backwards" NYP - PHL...

MACTRAXX

This may be the first time on Amtrak, but the move has historical precedent on MILW - the westward Olympian Hi would pull into Tacoma's stub facing west, a motor would be fastened to the tail, and the consist drug backwards to Seattle. At Seattle, the train was turned and eventually departed backwards for Tacoma, where the motor was dropped and diesels were put on facing eastward and the train pulled out facing forward to Chicago.

Before Amtrak Day, PennCentral's New York - Chicago "Manhattan Limited" stopped at 30th St. Philadelphia, so the passengers rode backwards on the Corridor.

Allouette wrote:

But since the Vermonter is no longer doing a reverse direction at Palmer, which was the cause of "running backwards," Amtrak should be able to run all seats forward provided they can "turn" the consist in St. Albans, which has been done before.

On days the Vermonter runs with a cab car, the consist is turned at St. Albans. Lately that's been at at least a couple of days a week. While it has run cab car first north of Palmer on a few occasions, the crews really don't like it, especially with the increased speed south of White River Jct.

In spring 1995, when the Vermonter was new, and combined with a Boston corridor train at New Haven, the cab car was used only between Palmer and Springfield. The southbound train would pull onto the Conn River Line on the NE connecting track, back across (locomotive first...) to Spring interlocking and then head into the platform track. The cab car would trail the combined train south of New Haven. The two-way seating wasn't implemented until later in 1995, when the cab-car-first operation was extended to New Haven. The cab car was attached to the rear of the corridor train, with the new "Vermonter" Baggage car trailing.

It has always run as a stand-alone train 55/57 or 54/56. The practice was identical to the Atlantic City Express trains (653 and 654) that ran from SPG-ACY. The train also ran cab first on the Springfield line in the late 90's, with speeds just as high, if not higher, thean the route further north, with over 40 crossings at grade.

Side note: All the MNRR trains operate with seats facing both ways, and all LD trains have at least 50% of their roomette seats facing the opposite way of travel.

Please correct me if I am wrong. Since trains 54/56 generally have an engine on each end, the train reverses direction at Springfield so that a St. Albans passenger who had been riding forward over the Springfield Line would now be facing backwards. This begs the question as to whether the seats are now half and half on the VERMONTER.
I believe the train could still be wyed at SPG by shoving towards Hartford and reversing direction at Spring to head north to SAB; however, with a two-headed monster consist, there would be no reason for the wye move.
Andy
Jacksonville, FL