Route 15

Just a heads up to everyone....this is not yet public information.

Route 15 will not return to trolley until late fall....I don't know why yet, as I said its not public information yet.

Anyone care to help make noise about this? Trolleys were supposed to be back online almost 2 years ago, and here we are still putzing around. I have a feeling there are issues with the wheelchair lifts....gotta love ADA. Or is this just a SEPTA ploy to indefinitely stall the project $52 million later.

walt wrote:

queenlnr8 wrote:So, Route 15 connects with the 10? Could there be a way to run from City Hall and the Tunnel to the end of the 15 with the new PCC IIs?

Except for the signal problem cited, there would be no other reason why PCC II's, or any other compatable cars couldn't use the routing suggested.

The track connections described date back to the PTC days when both Route 10 and Route 15 operated out of Callowhill.

Wouldn't it be possible to get the Route 15 down into City Hall - or at least the convention center area, by either

A) Running trolleys along the old Reading Viaduct from around 9th and Girard




B) Running tolleys down from Girard and 33rd/Poplar into the unused portion of the tunnel under Pennsylvania Avenue parallel to the Parkway?

There's a wide right of way-


And a clear shot down to the portal behind the Rodin Museum-



Actually- I believe that BOTH those routes converge where the old north entrance to the Reading Terminal is - which is perfect for running troservice lines could running directly into the Convention Center.




That's close to the 11th Street El stop, and the 8th & Market Broad Ridge and PATCO stops. The Convention Center already is linked up to Market East Station, so why not add some trolley connections?

Hal

Correction on the startup date...someone at 1234 must think its funny to post incorrect memos....

Why would you want to run the 15 to City Hall? It wouldnt really make a faster trip when you have the MFL and BSL as transfer points which go there much faster.

Hal -
First lemme say, great pic from atop the RDG viaduct.

The second track you mention is the old RDG city industrial lead, which departs the ex-B&O trackage at the Art Museum Tunnel and runs thru a trench, under the Police station, and rises to grade just west of Broad St, where it is interrupted (the Steak & Bagel Train, an ex-RDG coach, sits on track here at Broad). East of Broad the track becomes elevated and joins the viaduct. It used to be used to turn trains and it had a few industrial customers (one silo is now a condo).

I'm not sure of the practicality of diverting the Rt 15 this far south however. How about a shuttle between Center City and Fairmount to replace the always crowded Rt 48 bus?

Thanks for the info on the tracks running along Pennsylvania Avenue. I think it would be great to offer a subway shuttle using the existing right-of-ways and tunnel. One suggestion: Connect it to the Broad Street Subway just south of Spring Garden. This new line would be great for residents and tourists alike. Two-car shuttle trains from City Hall to the crowded residential neighborhood of Fairmount with stops at the Library(soon to be expanded, maybe to include a connection to the shuttle?) and a stop next the the Museum of Art (Can the old subway station already built there be reopened?) and a final stop at the very end of Pennsylvania Avenue for residents of Fairmount. This should much less expensive than securing new right-of-ways and digging a completely new tunnel.

The sad thing about all of this is that prior to the NCL bustitution of many ( if not most ) of the Philadelphia Streetcar lines, all of the services mentioned, or a variation thereof, would have been easily accomplished with existing trackage and track connections. Besides Route 10, which managed to survive the bustitution, Route 38 ran in the same area ( West Phila. north of Market), out of the subway, and did terminate at the edge of Fairmount Park. Routes 9 & 33 passed near the Art Museum and ran through Logan Circle on their way to Arch Street. Of course, during that era, Route 48 was also a streetcar. Most, if not all, of that trackage, and the connections, have been buried under asphalt for almost 50 years.

Urban D Kaye wrote:Hal -
First lemme say, great pic from atop the RDG viaduct.

Well, it's not my pic, it's a re-direct to the Reading Viaduct project.
I love the idea of a the elevated park, but I think there's enough space
on the viaduct to add a trolley as well.

Actually, City of Bethlehem is mixing transportation and conservation money to acquire the old Bethlehem Branch ROW, so I wonder if the Viaduct couldn't be a mix of transit and promenade - of course to coplete things, you'd need a bridge across the Vine Expressway into the Convention Center, but that's not entirely a bad idea.

Urban D Kaye wrote: The second track you mention is the old RDG city industrial lead,
which departs the ex-B&O trackage at the Art Museum Tunnel and runs thru a trench, under the Police station, and rises to grade just west of Broad St,
. . .
East of Broad the track becomes elevated and joins the viaduct.

Yep- the old City Branch - supposebly it got started way way back as a right of way for a canal between Schuylkill and Delaware Rivers in the 1700s - then was bought for the Main Line of Public Works(?)

Urban D Kaye wrote: I'm not sure of the practicality of diverting the Rt 15 this far south however.

Well, I always read that you loose 50% of your riders with each transfer,
so wouldn't it be nice to double ridership by offering a 1 seat ride?

And the entrance to Center City via Broad Street Subway is less than stirring- coming south on the Reading Viaduct would be a great visual introduction to Center City- admittedly it would be best for convention goers, but if tourism is really the biggest source of income for Philadelphia,
we ought to start having SEPTA reinforce that tourism market with a the transportation routes.


Well, the idea is to pave the way (bad wording when talking about trollies)
for grade separarted express trolley lines into the heart of Center City.

And the realistic places to do that are from Girard & Brewery Hill via Pensylvania Ave or Girard via Reading Viaduct-
Both of those intersections are convienently situated by the Girard Avenue trolley.

Heck, I'd really love to see a tourist /entertainment focused trolley or even "fake trolley" route running from the Convention Center through that unused ROW, behind the Rodin, to the Art Museum, to the Zoo -
and then run it through Fairmount Park, out to City Avenue into BalaCynwyd, and out across the Manayunk bridge to provide late night trolley service between Main Street Manayunk and Center City.

Hal

Several years ago SEPTA purchased most of the City Branch between Broad Street and the tunnel under Eakins Oval, in order to preserve future transportation options. Presently, there is a study underway to determine potential markets along the ROW, the most efficient routing into the Convention Center area (the Inky stands in the way on Broad and the old viaduct, although quite scenic, offers little ridership advantage) and the mode. Trolley service on Route 15 begins June 13th. Public timetables go into distributon this weekend.

k s heinle wrote: (snip)
the most efficient routing into the Convention Center area
. . .
the old viaduct, although quite scenic, offers little ridership advantage)

Um, if you're bringing people into the convention center,
spectacular scenery is a major advantage!

Look at the Nipper building in Camden-
The main draw is the scenery-

Look at that incredibly stupid $40 million dollar tram from Penns Landing to Camden - the ONLY draw is the scenery.

If we can waste $40 million to build a tram we can arrange a spectacular entrance to connect surface trollies into the city.

I'd bet you could do Penn's Landing tram for 1/10 of that cost.
Take a tethered balloon like the Zoo balloon - but have 2 lines, let it up in Philly, crank it over to Camden, pull it down.
(To keep the lines from blocking the Delaware River traffic, you'd connect the lines to the Ben Franlin Bridge towers. To keep the lines from putting horizontal stress on the bridge, you add a counterweight to convert the side force to pure down force.)

I know it's falling back to the old 1900s "city beautiful movement" but if make the entrances and views of the city look better for tourists, the residents benefit as well.

Hal

View from the zoo balloon:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/853 ... 1267lxqpgr

http://community.webshots.com/photo/853 ... 2207osmwtX

What tourists are riding from Port Richmond or West Philly into the convention center? That whole concept makes no sense.

Make that viaduct a park or tear it down.

jfrey40535 wrote: What tourists are riding from Port Richmond or West Philly into the convention center? That whole concept makes no sense.

Um,

Tourists from center city who take the hypothecial trolley down the viaduct and west:

out to out get to Kelly Drive,
out to the Zoo
out to get to the Please Touch Museum
out to the Mann Music Center *(with transfer to Route 10)

or east:

out to Fishtown, artists pushed out of Old City by high rent are moving in
out to Penn Treaty Park and Festival Pier
out to the future Kensington & Tacony trail
out to the Philly World Trade center (and other proposed developments)

Hal

jfrey40535 wrote:Correction on the startup date...someone at 1234 must think it's funny to post incorrect memos....

More likely someone's trying to identify gossips and teach them a lesson.

Trolley service on Route 15 begins June 13th. Public timetables go into distributon this weekend.

Is that true? Why is it not publicized anywhere?

It not says on septa.org that it will remain a bus (including after June 13) due to problems with the switches to callowhill depot.