Restoring the Conway Branch

Speaking of New Hampshire North Coast.

130MM posted a url to Boston Sand & Gravel's website for their railroad subsidiary (NHN).

NH NORTHCOAST

PRODUCT DELIVERY AND FREIGHT HAUL SERVICE
PO Box 429, Rt 16
Ossipee, NH 03864
Tel: 603-539-2789
Fax: 603-539-8060
New Hampshire Northcoast (NHN) was established in 1986 with the purchase of an abandoned rail line which the company rebuilt into the current Class III freight railroad.

At its main facility in on Rte 16 in Ossipee, NH, NHN occupies 43 acres of land with various side tracks for rail car storage, a facility for locomotive maintenance and a railcar repair shop. NHN owns 4 locomotives, a caboose and 78 hopper cars (100 tons) and various track maintenance equipment.

NHN’s facility Rochester located at 69 Northcoast Drive, just off Rte 16, is home base for Track Maintenance operations. NHN owns and maintains 6 miles of yard track and 43 miles of track and sidings between Ossipee, NH and Rollinsford, NH. NHN also owns trackage rights At Rollinsford, connects with Pan Am Railways and owns trackage rights to the interchange at Dover, NH.

I suggest that anyone contemplating restoration of the Conway Branch go for a ride on the Silver Lake Railroad. It's a great ride, but there's a reason they use Fairmont motorcars - the track (especially the ties) can't take anything heavier.

-John

Some more thoughts...

* Freeport gets ~1.3 million visitors/yr from the Boston area. NNEPRA estimates that the DE will carry 8,300 flatlanders to Freeport. Assuming they're all from the Boston area, that seven-tenths of one percent of total visitations. Now even if that number quadrupled and much of the ridership was completely incremental business "stolen" from the Mount Washington Valley, the folks in N Conway (whose visitations I unfortunately can't find) surely wouldn't even feel a bump.

* Spend tens of millions to re-establish service and provide one train/day? I know the state of Maine's cool with that (esp. when it's not their money), NH's another story (even when it's not their money).

* The DE has yet to best the passenger schedules of yore, so I'd assume a new service to N Conway would take no less than three hrs. Add on the that transit time to/from the train stations, transfer time, etc. there ain't going to be many day-trippers.

* If visits were dictated solely by shopping/distance, most would go to Kittery and be done with it.

* Freeport's shopping district is densely situated. N Conway's is not. How the heck are people going to get around the area (especially with all those shopping bags in tow)?

That last point also occurred to me this morning: if the No. Conway stop was at the old station (current Conway Scenic), while you have a decent small village feel when you get off you're nearly 3 inhospitable-to-pedestrians miles from Mountain Valley Mall, slightly less to Settlers Green, where most of the outlets as well as L.L.Bean are. Heck, even Bellini's isn't in No. Conway village anymore!

Cowford wrote:Some more thoughts...

* Freeport gets ~1.3 million visitors/yr from the Boston area. NNEPRA estimates that the DE will carry 8,300 flatlanders to Freeport. Assuming they're all from the Boston area, that seven-tenths of one percent of total visitations. Now even if that number quadrupled and much of the ridership was completely incremental business "stolen" from the Mount Washington Valley, the folks in N Conways (who's visitations I unfortunately can't find) surely wouldn't even feel a bump.

Without knowing the visitor numbers I'm not entirely certain that's a fair statement to make. In the summertime it could be true that some shift of 0.x% might not be an issue. In the off-season I'm not so sure due to low absolute numbers. I'm also not certain at all that this type of shift really could be 0.x% or less.

Factors of transportation cost and distance are among the most fundamental reasons why people do or don't visit certain areas. If I could get to the Grand Canyon cheaply I probably already would have done so. My hypothesis is that when remembering value added intangibles (the ability to get up and walk around or eat a meal), current promotions and overall travel time I think there is a potential for a shift in much the same way that there was when MHT opened and got business from Southwest but obivously on a far smaller scale.

All I'm saying is that there is going to be a potentially more convenient and faster alternative to travel by car to North Conway. This alternative is slated to go through a series of improvements in the near future which will eliminate issues with delays and service in Massachusetts which might give travlers some pause. As such I think Freeport is getting a chance to sell itself in a new way to the Boston crowd which frankly hasn't happenned since the mid-90s when a lot of the outlets moved into Freeport.

I don't feel the outcome of this is a foregone conclusion of "some change but nothing noticeable". There are too many other economic sensitivities right now which the NH state tax free advantage may or may not compensate for. I understand that at full fare some of this might not make sense but I'm not entirely certain that "full fare" applies in every situation.

Cowford wrote:* Spend tens of millions to re-establish service and provide one train/day? I know the state of Maine's cool with that (esp. when it's not their money), NH's another story (even when it's not their money).

Very true. However let's also remember that big business in coastal or southern NH never got behind the Downeaster. I wonder if that might have made a difference. In the case of a much lighter proposal of low frequency shuttle service I think it might, especially if the Mt. Washington Valley really did have concerns that they were losing business to Freeport.

Cowford wrote:* The DE has yet to best the passenger schedules of yore, so I'd assume a new service to N Conway would take no less than three hrs. Add on the that transit time to/from the train stations, transfer time, etc. there ain't going to be many day-trippers.

I posted the point regarding "schedules of yore" to the Downeaster thread for further discussion. My point regarding posting NHN's information was that they are a Class III railroad. As such I'm not so sure 3' travel time is reasonable. I think it would be closer to 1'45-2'00'' (assuming Class III at least to Conway) which is comparable to the drive time.

Cowford wrote:* If visits were dictated solely by shopping/distance, most would go to Kittery and be done with it.

All very true. However, visits in November and December to Freeport are significant, largely from regional visitors (Boston) and largely focused on shopping. If you could travel to Freeport at that time of year, face no concerns from disruption due to snow, be able to relax in comfort, and be able to walk around the village unencumbered I have to wonder if North Conway might seem less attractive.

* Freeport's shopping district is densely situated. N Conway's is not. How the heck are people going to get around the area (especially with all those shopping bags in tow)?

I'm under the impression that there already is a shuttle. Nonetheless certainly not as pedestrian friendly as Freeport.

I could be wrong, but when NHN refers to themselves as a Class III railroad, I think they're referring to the size (and/or revenue) of the railroad... e.g., Class III = shortline (LSI, SGLR, FGLK, et al); Class II = regional (PAR, FEC, MRL, et al); Class I = the big guys.

It's a bit confusing because of their use of the word "rebuilt":

"New Hampshire Northcoast (NHN) was established in 1986 with the purchase of an abandoned rail line which the company rebuilt into the current Class III freight railroad."

Are they talking about rebuilding the physical plant to FRA Class III track standards, or are they talking about rebuilding the railroad (or in other words, rebuilding the carrier) into an AAR Class III shortline?

MEC407 wrote:I could be wrong, but when NHN refers to themselves as a Class III railroad, I think they're referring to the size (and/or revenue) of the railroad... e.g., Class III = shortline (LSI, SGLR, FGLK, et al); Class II = regional (PAR, FEC, MRL, et al); Class I = the big guys.

It's a bit confusing because of their use of the word "rebuilt":

"New Hampshire Northcoast (NHN) was established in 1986 with the purchase of an abandoned rail line which the company rebuilt into the current Class III freight railroad."

Are they talking about rebuilding the physical plant to FRA Class III track standards, or are they talking about rebuilding the railroad (or in other words, rebuilding the carrier) into an AAR Class III shortline?

MEC407,

Your answer makes more sense. Good catch.

Since there is so much discussion about the Mountain Division.....what is the tractive effort like to get the Conway Branch

back up and running?

There is not effort at the moment because of the cost to rehabilitate the line. The study conducted back in 2004ish broke everything down. Coleman's in Madison (a former B&M customer) has expressed interest but are doing just fine without it. NHN to my knowledge has expressed interest but they haven't submitted anything. Everybody has good intentions but nobody is willing to make a move.

Here's the link to the study
http://www.nh.gov/dot/org/aerorailtrans ... yStudy.pdf

Thanks for the link. Not a bad estimate for 6.2 mil.

I noticed the description of relatively light weight rail and also the photo of what would appear to be an older style of joint bar. The HNTB report for the Mountain Division actually went into a remarkably fine amount of detail and described the jointed rail construction on the Mountain Division quite well.

The joint bars on the 115 RE rail both in Portland/Westbrook as well as the new section in North
Conway, NH uses 36’’ – six hole, toeless head free joint bars. According to the track charts and
visual observations, all of the 85 Lb rail in both Maine and New Hampshire uses 24” – four hole,
toeless head free joint bars (Figure 2-10). These are a more modern design than is often found
on older rail of this vintage. These joint bars appear to be in good condition and may be re-used
if the 85 Lb rail is retained.

I noticed the joint bars on the Conway Branch appeared to have "toes" and are perhaps quite old.

What are the chances that the rail is original installation done for the Portsmouth, Great Falls, and Conway Railroad in 1871?

It would raise my eyebrowns quite a bit if all of the rail was orriginal. I would almost be willing to put money on the fact that you won't find very much of the orriginal light iron rail. Most of that stuff was replaced by the B&M in the early 1900s, but definately before WW I.

Everyone talking about off-season demand is onto something important. To turn Yogi Berra around, lots of people go places on days that they are crowded. Not so many go on days when they are not. Rte 16 gets really backed up on Columbus Day weekend, and maybe somewhat on Labor Day and a few other warm-weather weekends. And in cottage/camping season there are Friday night/Sunday afternoon rush hours, right? I assume that it gets backed up in Conway on weekends from Black Friday to Christmas, but I don't know if that traffic extends very far south. My point is that most of the time it's a pretty open road for cars and buses. The peak periods might have enough people to fill frequent trains, but the off-peak periods probably don't. And most days would be off-peak.

Because lots of people go when it's crowded -- including me -- lots of us get the idea that it's so crowded that a train would be sure to fill. I know I have the same thoughts about Cape Cod pax service, because I've gotten stuck on changeover weekend or really nice beach days, and haven't usually tried to go to the cape, or North Conway, on a Tuesday in April. If most of the year is like Tuesdays in April, then we're not justifying rebuilding the railroad. Easy bus-train transfers to get into Boston faster during Boston's really long rush hours that happen 5-6 days a week: Yes! Subsidized hourly bus service on Rte 16-Pinkham, Rte 16-132 Crawford, Rte 93 Littleton, with bus and bus-train transfers to get people into Boston fast at rush hour? Maybe yes! Packed trains covering operating costs and justifying governmetn capital improvements with stops in Ossipee, Madison, Conway, North Conway, Bartlett, Crawfords, and Bretton Woods -- not so much.

Look at the other side of the state: the Hobo/Winnepasauke RRs could in principle run trains to take people from the lakes to Franconia Notch, or ski trains to Loon, or whatever, on a RR that's already in operable condition, and they don't. Look at Crawford Notch: the CSRR could un hiker-biker shuttles, shopping trains from the north into the mall area (they could stop at that McDonalds south of N. Conway, for example), take campers from Fourth Iron campground to N. Conway for shopping or dinner, or a bunch of other transportation services on tracks they already use, but they don't. They don't even offer a Notch Train from the north, or let people get on in Conway or Bartlett and ride the Valley Train from there. RRs need volume. Convenient transport needs short headways, which means you need a couple of hundred people who want to travel every couple of hours to make the RR an efficient way to travel.

I for one don't believe that restoring the Conway Branch is in of itself justifiable per se. However, as we have seen with the Mountain Division the addition of one (maybe two) serious volume shippers can rapidly change the economic equation. To a certain extent that can come down to a "chicked or the egg" question. Which comes first?

The simple answer in Maine is that making sure the railroad is at least available (as opposed to operational) through smart periodic incremental maintenance is the key. This prevents serious deterioration and also allows for faster and far less costly rehabilitation.

Do I think NHDOT should restore the Conway Branch with no current or predicted future prospects for freight customers? No.

Do I think NHDOT should spend funds on maintaining the Conway Branch to minimal adequate levels to allow future service restoration? Absolutely.

At least in the short term part of the steps that ought to be taken would include relaying missing track sections, and eliminating encroachment. I would propose coming up with a plan (or just using parts of the current study) and stretching the program over a five to ten year timeline. Given the utterly bare bones level of maintenance required to keep the line open (herbicidal spraying) the expenditures to do so would be barely a blip within the NHDOT budget.

Loss of this vitally important transporation corridor would potentially cause irreparable economic harm to the future propects for job creation in the Conway/Ossipee area.