Restoring the Conway Branch

One thing Northern Vermont and New Hampshire needs during the winter is reliable propane shipments. There was a shortage of trucks and drivers this season, same as last year. Rail shipments of propane to the area might be more feasible.

While this is starting to get off topic I'll split the posts.

There has been talk of a propane farm being built in Ossipee or Tamworth. I bet you could also sell Tamworth Power on getting a lot of their chips in by rail. They are are off the line enough that a short spur could be built to serve them and a chip unloader. The area around Tamworth Power is also an ideal place for the propane farm. I believe those are the two only perspective customers at this time that had mentioned rail service.

Ski trains would also be a good reason to restore the 22 miles, as you may have a better chance of arguing an Amtrak Boston-Conway run ski train that was via the Conway Branch than via the Mountain Div.

In reference to the bridges. At our request they are all decked over by the snowmobile clubs for their benefit, but they are decked so that the rails are exposed so that we can get our trackcars over them.

Thanks for the new topic Ian! I apologize for getting the CSRR one off track.

Hey no problem, we all caused it!

While this whole topic is interesting, I doubt that complete restoration of service is in the near future.
The Conway Scenic owns from the Albany/Conway town line, to Intervale. CSRR is a semi insular road
which is not subject to as much regulation as a common carrier. If through service were restored,
CSRR would lose that status. They would be required to meet many criteria that would, essentially,
drive them out of business.

The idea has been floated several times and each time has been side tracked or derailed, mostly due
to lack of funding, and lack of potential return on the investment. The ridership will not sustain the
commuter operation. Snow train revenue would be limited to a 3 or 4 months in the winter, and for
the most part, only on weekends. The lack of, and continually diminishing, shipper base of industrial
and commercial users would not sustain freight service.

Gas shipments would be a seasonal fluctuation, and getting gas to the distribution points for shipment
by rail has been the issue, not getting the product to the north country.

I don't think restoration of this line would necessarily spell the end for the CSRR. It sounds like the business along this line would serve places to the south of Conway, and it doesn't sound like there would be a huge need for service north. I'm sure that the CSRR would see the benefit of having this connection, and there would likely be a solution that would satisfy everyone as far as trackage use.

merrman wrote:While this whole topic is interesting, I doubt that complete restoration of service is in the near future.
The Conway Scenic owns from the Albany/Conway town line, to Intervale. CSRR is a semi insular road
which is not subject to as much regulation as a common carrier. If through service were restored,
CSRR would lose that status. They would be required to meet many criteria that would, essentially,
drive them out of business.

The idea has been floated several times and each time has been side tracked or derailed, mostly due
to lack of funding, and lack of potential return on the investment. The ridership will not sustain the
commuter operation. Snow train revenue would be limited to a 3 or 4 months in the winter, and for
the most part, only on weekends. The lack of, and continually diminishing, shipper base of industrial
and commercial users would not sustain freight service.

Gas shipments would be a seasonal fluctuation, and getting gas to the distribution points for shipment
by rail has been the issue, not getting the product to the north country.

There is nothing north of Conway; all the potential customers are to the south thus there will be no thru service; the last potential customer is just to the south of the Madison, Albany town line. Assuming that it would be NHN as the operating railroad, they would only need to run to the Conway rail yard so the engine(s) can switch ends and since the CSRR stops in Conway to do the same, it won't affect them much.
Since it’s a small corridor the potential return in investment from what I gather would be small but… an investment indeed. The bigger issue is who wants to spend the money to rebuild the corridor for only that small investment; it’s not worth it to NHN because it would take years and years for them to make that money back but if the state paid for at least half of the cost, it would be something to look at; it all depends on how much that state is willing to cough up. Flash back to 1972 - had the B&M just least the line to a small carrier (like NEGS for example) more than likely it would have been beneficial for a small railroad to keep those few customer north of Ossipee but to a big railroad it wasn't.

True, a connection to NHN would make a much easier route for equipment interchange. As long as
the NHN did not run inside Conway yard limits, except to interchange equipment with CSRR, things
could remain status quo. However, regular NHN trains into Conway would sever CSRR's insularity.

Yes, NHN has offered to run the line to Albany, but only dropping start up money in their 3 miles that are out of service. They expect DOT to spend the money to get the line back open, and rightfully so. NHN is not pursuing customers north of them at this time, even though it could benefit one of their current customers, McFarlane Steel. NHN has pretty much stated they will serve what is provided, and what comes along if the line is restored.

NHN is a good road, but their thinking shows how shortlines in NH can be so different. Whereas NEGS is always looking for new customers, and pursuing them, even on the White Mountain Branch. I guess its kind of unfair to compare the two like this since NHN's ownership and original purpose puts them at delivering gravel, not serving customers. The propane and steel is mostly done, because they are going right there anyway. However, when NHN was for sale a few years back and NEGS looked at it, had the price been right and NEGS began operating it, I bet you would see a big difference in customers being pursued, even on the northern part of the Conway Branch. But I guess the management styles are built based on what they are doing, NHN has a management style as they will always be there so we are fine with what we have, where NEGS has a management style that they may not be there tomorrow, so we do the best for our customers and keep trying to get more in case of hard times.

In the case of running around trains that serve Colman Concrete, I bet a run around could be put in easily in the pit there and you could keep of CSRR property. And speaking of Coleman, with the Conway Bypass beginning in October this year in Madison (yay detail money! )I have not seen the maps to show if they plan on building over the right of way, or filling in over it. Unfortunately even though the southern terminus will be in Madison, we don't have a DOT map of this project, so I guess I'll have to go to the Conway Town Hall where I know there is one.

In the case of ski trains, no one is talking commuter. See the NHDOT study where they mention passenger service, they purposely do not use the Downeaster as an example, and for good reason. A Downeaster type service would be a huge money pit. We don't have enough traffic to support that up here, however a Amtrak chartered Ski Train service Friday-Sun weekly or bi weekly would work. Possibility of Foliage trains and limited summer service are also a possibility. While it may not alleviate traffic completely, it is kinda ridiculous that on Friday nights I am sitting on the side of the road an traffic gets backed up from the 16/302 lights, through Conway Village and all the way past me in Madison to the southern Albany/Madison town line. A few things I have though about this service though is different types of logistics...would Amtrak be able to cross CSRR territory to go from Conway to N Conway as it would be an unneeded PITA to swap locos at Conway to go to N Conway, and if they couldn't people just don't want to go to Conway station as the hotels and slopes are still north of that. I guess with an agreement CSRR could allow them to go the additional miles. Or could CSRR acquire more equipment and then run to Dover to interchange with the Downeaster? I can see problems arising with PAR here and possibly NHN were as if it was Amtrak, federal law can help out. Amtrak Boston direct to N Conway with a quick stop in Dover, or just have an Amtrak shuttle train from Dover to N. Conway? The second option could lower operational costs, but could inconvenience customers who will have to change their equipment from the Boston-Dover Downeaster, to the N Conway train.

I also think a southern NHN connection would make equipment changes and additions much easier for CSRR. Their current interchange seems like it takes a long time to get stuff. I bet it could shave of at least a few days.

I dont know much about rail law but could the CSRR crews take control of the Amtrak train and the Amtrak equipment?

I don't see how NHN could benefit from McFarland steel by extending further towards conway. They deliver the cars already to Ossipee

In a realistic world, how many present day ways would you possibly be able to get from Boston, MA to North Conway, NH? Somebody has already mentioned the branch off the Dover mainline. Are there any others?

Ian MacMillan wrote:In the case of running around trains that serve Colman Concrete, I bet a run around could be put in easily in the pit there and you could keep of CSRR property. And speaking of Coleman, with the Conway Bypass beginning in October this year in Madison (yay detail money! )I have not seen the maps to show if they plan on building over the right of way, or filling in over it. Unfortunately even though the southern terminus will be in Madison, we don't have a DOT map of this project, so I guess I'll have to go to the Conway Town Hall where I know there is one.

Why build a run around track at Coleman, when a mile up in Conway you have more than enough track to use?
I found a website that shows the Conway Bypass (upside down). With this new bypass that is going in do you really think the state is going to fill in the ROW (assuming its above grade)? I certainly hope not... that would kill any future for the line; and to think the state wasted tax payers money on a study that was conducted 5, 6 years ago, is making my blood boil. However, if you look at the map and see the dates some of phases they go all the way back to 1997, this has been an ongoing project for over 10 years now. If the state was planning to fill in the ROW I don't think they would have wasted time and money in the study.

theseaandalifesaver wrote:In a realistic world, how many present day ways would you possibly be able to get from Boston, MA to North Conway, NH? Somebody has already mentioned the branch off the Dover mainline. Are there any others?

There are two
1. Boston to North Conway using the Conway Branch at Rollinsford.
2. Boston to North Conway using the Mountain Division at Portland.

b&m 1566 wrote:

Ian MacMillan wrote:In the case of running around trains that serve Colman Concrete, I bet a run around could be put in easily in the pit there and you could keep of CSRR property. And speaking of Coleman, with the Conway Bypass beginning in October this year in Madison (yay detail money! )I have not seen the maps to show if they plan on building over the right of way, or filling in over it. Unfortunately even though the southern terminus will be in Madison, we don't have a DOT map of this project, so I guess I'll have to go to the Conway Town Hall where I know there is one.

Why build a run around track at Coleman, when a mile up in Conway you have more than enough track to use?
I found a website that shows the Conway Bypass (upside down). With this new bypass that is going in do you really think the state is going to fill in the ROW (assuming its above grade)? I certainly hope not... that would kill any future for the line; and to think the state wasted tax payers money on a study that was conducted 5, 6 years ago, is making my blood boil. However, if you look at the map and see the dates some of phases they go all the way back to 1997, this has been an ongoing project for over 10 years now. If the state was planning to fill in the ROW I don't think they would have wasted time and money in the study.

I think it would be easier to have a run around at Coleman to head off any future problems. What if CSRR does not want them to do the 10 min run around, or if they agree, some time down the road they change their mind. From an opinion it just seems like it would be easier to have one at Coleman. Especially if you have a train length one like Ossipee Pit has, then if and when seasonal passenger service comes, you could have an open main line.

About filling in. Where it is going to cross the tracks in Madison, the ROW will be either at grade or below grade. While it is against state law to fill in a railbanked ROW...we have seen on several occasions it done. Not saying it will get done, but there still is that possibility that it unfortunately will.

Thanks for finding that map for me!

miketrainnut wrote:I don't see how NHN could benefit from McFarland steel by extending further towards conway. They deliver the cars already to Ossipee

It wouldn't benefit NHN, it would benefit McFarlane Steel, which is based out of Fryeburg. The 22 additional car miles compared to their fuel down to Ossipee could save them quite a bit.

Put the propane opportunity argument to bed. There are already two rail-served propane distribution terminals within 50-75 miles of area in question: Auburn, ME; Rochester, NH. In addition, there is the Sea-3 LPG import facility in Newington, NH. Why on earth is there a need for additional capacity?