Remember this locomotive test? FL9s on the NYC

This subject may have come up on this forum before, but anyway……… remember back in the fall of 1965, the NYC borrowed a pair of New Haven FL9s to test on Harlem trains? I remember this very well and as a college student often saw them in Harlem service during this test. The first thing you have to ask yourself in reminiscing about this is “why?” It’s hard to imagine NYC having any interest in acquiring new passenger power in 1965, even in the commuter zone where ridership was growing. However, it is true that the “T” passenger electrics were quite elderly by the 1960s, so perhaps they were thinking about a replacement.

During the test the FL9s made one round trip between Brewster and GCT on weekdays. Mornings they operated into GCT on train 908, the only train scheduled to skip North White Plains station. This job departed Brewster at 7:23 and made only 5 other passenger stops. With its usual NYC power this train paused on track 2 just north of NWP station to execute its power swap. During the FL9 test I was told that engine crews were taxied to and from the trains last passenger stop at Hawthorne, since the electric and diesel zones were two different seniority districts at the time (Pardon me if I’m not describing this with exactly the right term --- I’m an industry outsider), so the train could run through NWP without a stop. It’s hard to picture that the train, which normally would have left NWP at 8:12 following its power swap, actually did make it without catching signals since the parade of “zoned” trains leaving NWP yard at that time of the morning was very precisely defined!
On the homebound evening run there was no such reversal of this process since I do not believe any Brewster-bound train was scheduled to skip Holland Ave.-North White Plains then. I forget which train normally had the borrowed units Brewster-bound.
In any event, the FL9s were returned to the New Haven after a couple of months and nothing further was done, until of course 1969 when everything changed under Penn Central.
I wonder if there is some NYC railroad document--- there must have been one somewhere --- describing and commenting on this test. It was hard to think about FL9s as standard power on the Harlem, with their famously slow acceleration out of the 12 stations (not counting the cemeteries) between NWP and Brewster. Perhaps that was exactly what the NYC determined.

The seniority district on the Harlem for engine crews extended from Mott Haven to Chatham plus the Mahopac Branch. It was not split at North White Plains. I believe they changed crews for a short period but eventually the crews ran through between Brewster and Grand Central Terminal. The only reason engine crews were changed at NWP was simply because it was the most practical way to operate through that terminal with all trains changing power there. Once trains were operated through without changing power there was no more need to change crews there either. Even in 1965 there were rush hour periods of congestion at both Harmon and North White Plains and anything to help this congestion the Central would go for. Through non-stop operation through either HM or NWP would help their operations in a big way and this was an opportunity to do so.
Noel Weaver

I was using the wrong term to describe this. I am told by an ex-NYC guy that what NYC did not have at the time (1965) was an engine crew run-through agreement between GCT and Brewster, hence they had to figure out a location for an engine crew change. I knew it was a labor matter of some kind.

The crew change at NWP was for operating reason, namely the change of locomotives, and not for any other reason. The same at Harmon. The unions tried to stop the run throughs but they had no agreement to provide for a crew change when the power was going through. Any crew change that took place at NWP after the power started running through was on short time, maybe some time to get more crews qualified through but that would be about it. It didn't take Metro-North, Amtrak or Conrail to initiate longer crew districts. The New York Central was running conductors and trainmen through between New York and Buffalo many years ago and Boston and Buffalo as well. I remember riding the New England States out of Boston in November, 1962 and the conductor on there told me he would be running through from Boston to Buffalo that day. When the Penn Central made a move to run engineers through between New York and Poughkeepsie and New York and Albany the unions made a stink but it got nowhere, the railroad got their way because there was no agreement to require a engine crew change at Harmon after the diesels took over and ran through there anyway. Eventually they even had a job or two that ran through to Schenectady out of New York but this again in the Penn Central era. Closer to my neck of the woods the same thing happened in New Haven but not until after Amtrak put up the wires to Boston. This move the BLE opposed simply because they stood to lose their crew change point in New Haven. Amtrak did it anyway and today a good number of trains run through between Boston and New York with no engine crew change enroute and indeed one or two of them do not even stop in New Haven anymore. Even where there were established changes of seniority districts and crew changes some of these long established locations today are no longer crew change points, in most places the railroad is governed by how far they can run a train with the same crew with some time to spare within the hours of service law. Many, many crew change points of the past are long gone, why because it is simply more efficient to highball such points and run another division and it often can be done well within the hours of service and in most cases the crews are better off too with longer runs but good pay and more time off between trips. I know I benefitted big time when the crew change at Syracuse was eliminated by Conrail and the crews were run through between Selkirk and Buffalo. I had ten good years on one of these jobs, the best job I ever held on the railroad.
Noel Weaver
Noel Weaver

I found a photo not long ago that I believe was taken during this time. It is of 2 FL9's and the front portion of the train, which was a NYC heavyweight coach - not yet rebuilt tho.

Of course now I can't remember where I saw it...

If you happen to get a copy of "Penn Central Power In Color Vol. 2", it has a really good section on
the FL9's as well as all the electric power. Obviously these aren't comprehensive in terms of operations,
run-through agreements, etc. but still good photos and some good info.

Charlie

This isn't the photo I was looking for, but this one is currently offered for sale on eBay. It is ID'd as "1965 NEW HAVEN RAILROAD ENGINE 2033 VALHALLA NY LAKE ST CROSSING".

Vallhalla station was on a curve,photo is around Mt Pleasant or Kensico area.

Thanks hoss. Sounds like that shot may be mis-identified.

THIS is the photo I was looking for. When I first saw it a couple of months ago, I thought it might have been taken during this test. This shot is labelled "1965 Hawthorne, NY".

TCurtin wrote:<snip> I wonder if there is some NYC railroad document--- there must have been one somewhere --- describing and commenting on this test...

There is a document detailing the 1965 test. The title is, "Suburban Service Adjustment Experiment, Progress Report No. 4." It was published by the Tri-State Transportation Commission, however, not New York Central. There is a copy at the New York Public Library and at the New York State Library in Albany.

Some details from the report.

The test was sponsored by the Tri-State Transportation Commission and funded with a grant from the U.S. Housing and Urban Development agency. The purpose was to increase the quality of service on the diesel portion of the Harlem Division, to see if a slightly faster running time -- and the convenience of commuters not having to sit through the four or five minute stop at North White Plains while engines were changed -- would attract more riders.

The two FL-9s were leased from the New Haven Railroad for a period of four months. The first trip was run on June 27, 1965 and the final trip was run on Oct. 31, 1965. It was proposed to extend the project but, citing heavier winter traffic and more difficult conditions, the New Haven declined to continue the lease past October. The two trains the FL-9s operated on were Nos. 908 and 945 and both had their schedules reduced by six minutes. The reduction in running time was between Valhalla and White Plains. With the engine change it took twelve minutes; without less than six.

Train 945 departed GCT for Brewster at 5:39 PM, which was a traditional departure time for about the hottest rush hour Brewster train, one normally not stopping at either 125th Street or White Plains. Both trains changed engine crews at Hawthorne and operated nonstop between there and Grand Central. Both were 11-car trains. No. 904 averaged 820 riders per trip and had a 53% OT average. Delayed by trains ahead between Woodlawn and Grand Central was by far the reason most often cited for delays. No. 945 averaged 704 passengers per trip and had a 74% OT average. During the midday layover the equipment deadheaded back to North White Plains for fuel and servicing.

I well remember seeing the first run of 904. Central had distributed a brochure detailing the experiment. (Also announcing more 4700 series MU cars were on the way and that three Budd RDC cars were scheduled to go into service on off-peak Brewster trains.) It was quite a sight that first morning to see a train show up on Track 2 at NWP with two FL-9s up front and watch them pull through without stopping. Normally the two units used were 2032 and 2033 but other units also appeared from time to time. The units were normally parked during midday on the engine terminal leads at NWP in Yard C near the turntable. You could see them quite clearly from Virginia Road near General Heath Avenue and they were quite a sight!

Tommy, that's a great and much appreciated summary of the experiment!! God, I'd love to have a copy of the report. I don't suppose anybody makes copies for sale.

RE your comment, I know 904 didn't have a scheduled passenger stop at NWP but somewhere in my brain I had a recollection that 945 did have a stop at Holland Ave. I gues I'm wrong about that. I'm not surprised that 904 lost time catching signals past NWP since it would have hit that trackage 5 or 6 min. ahead of its scheduled "slot." I would think the RR could have corrected for that up front by intentionally departing Brewster 5 or 6 min. later but evidently they did not.

Thanks again for your comments
Tom

Tommy, that's a great and much appreciated summary of the experiment!! God, I'd love to have a copy of the report. I don't suppose anybody makes copies for sale.

RE your comment, I know 904 didn't have a scheduled passenger stop at NWP but somewhere in my brain I had a recollection that 945 did have a stop at Holland Ave. I gues I'm wrong about that. I'm not surprised that 904 lost time catching signals past NWP since it would have hit that trackage 5 or 6 min. ahead of its scheduled "slot." I would think the RR could have corrected for that up front by intentionally departing Brewster 5 or 6 min. later but evidently they did not.

But you know, I still --- as I put in my first post --- wonder WHY they did this. I could not picture NYC having any interest in purchasing new passenger engines in the 60s.

Thanks again for your comments
Tom

Tom there were a couple of MU trains running ahead of 908 but both only made two stops. The report states the schedule was modified to maintain 908's slot by having the train depart Brewster seven minutes later at 7:23 AM rather than 7:16 AM. The report states the delays were east of the double-track Harlem, however, encountered below Woodlawn. There is a section in the report where it is described how delays east of Mott Haven (MO) involving Hudson Division, New Haven and Harlem trains, would have a ripple effect on trains further west (I'm using NYC timetable directions here) that tended to multiply rather than disperse as the rush hour went on. The old, 'late trains get later,' adage.

As for the why, it was really the beginning of public investment in commuter railroads in New York State. Already New York State in coordination with the Port Authority, had begun a program of buying air-conditioned MU cars and leasing them to Central. There was some pushback from legislators representing riders in Central's diesel territory, especially on the Harlem Division, asking, "Hey how about us?" The FL-9 demonstration project was part of the response. There was some thought that perhaps dual-mode locomotives were a partial answer -- cheaper than electrifying -- but I think it was already becoming clear, that if these types of locomotives were acquired, New York Central wouldn't be buying them, they would be purchased with public dollars. New York Central had lobbied for some public support and it was starting to come. But if New York State was going to supply tax dollars NYS wanted to be involved in the decision-making process.

Jameson Doig wrote a great book, "Metropolitan Transportation Policies and the New York Region," published in 1966, that describes in detail all the events and people in the background that were pushing all this. We were at the very dawn of a new age for commuters on the New York Central and everywhere else in the Metropolitan New York area.

Interesting, thank you

BTW, although I never rode either 908 or 945 duration of the test I did see 908 on several mornings while it was going on (I was a college student in The Bronx --- Fordham --- in the fall of 65 and 908 passed the campus right about 8:37 if I recall correctly). I wasn't aware of the test while it was happening, only somewhat puzzled to see a pair of FL9s hauling a consist of NYC coaches

Tom regarding getting a copy of the Tri-State Transportation Commission Report. I believe you're a resident of Manhattan? You can see it at the main library at W. 42nd Street and 5th Avenue. The one with the lions out front! Here's the catalog listing:

Suburban service adjustment experiment : a summary : Harlem Division - New York Central Railroad, We
New York : The Commission, 1967

• Location Schwarzman Building - Main Reading Room 315
  Call No.: F-11 5006
  Status: AVAILABLE
  Message: USE IN LIBRARY

Catalog link It will take you to the search page. Write in "Tri-State Transportation Commission" and it should be the sixth book listed. (You can't link to a search.)

It's a reference work so you would not be able to borrow it or take it out of the library. You would need a library card -- if you don't have one you can acquire one in minutes with a valid driver's license -- and then you would go to the main reading room on the third floor. Fill out a call slip and you'll have the book in twenty minutes. They have a self-service copy center, too.

As I recall, the catalog listing shows the report is 8 pages long. I believe that's in error. I originally found it at the NYPL and it was actually two soft-cover reports bound together. The report that includes the diesels is Report No. 4 and it is forty or fifty pages long.

Alternatively, you could also possibly request the reports through your local branch library. They should be able to get it on loan and all the branches have copy machines. A third possibility is that you might be able to get the 42nd Street library's copy division to make you a copy. They've made copies for me and they told me they will copy anything in the collection. I don't remember how much the charge was but it was relatively modest.