"Night Owl" service

I am looking for some hard answers to this question. Years ago, the Central and the Penn Central operated what they called late night "Night Owl" service ("50-cent Surcharge" was noted in timetables of the day), but the trains ran late into the night/morning.

I would love it if the last train out of Grand Central was 3:20 am and not 1:20 am. If I am somewhere downtown, and I want to get back to GCT in time to catch the last train, I have to account for the lack of taxis, for infrequent late night subway schedules, and the like. I would certainly be willing to pay extra (maybe $2 or $3) to ride a train past 1:30 am. But I'm sure there's a whole list of things I'm overlooking.

Issues that have been brought up to me:

- MTA doesn't want to keep Grand Central open later

- Equipment and crew availability and turnaround

- Costs to run late night service- keeping dispatchers on later

- Costs to have the coach cleaners toss the equipment

What else am I missing?

-otto-

The LIRR seems to run quite a few trains after 1:20am.
maybe MNRR could just follow the system the LIRR uses.

It's a perennial issue in the service planning corridors here. We all would love to run 24-hour service, but the potential ridership numbers just don't justify it. The biggest expense is in crew and equipment costs. The other expenses you listed are incidental to such an operation and wouldn't drive the decision. In fact, by the time the last trains get where they're going, it's only an hour or so when there aren't any trains running, so the support infrastructure is already there (Rail Traffic Controllers [dispatchers] work 24/7, for instance).

I'm not sure why/how the LIRR justifies it - maybe the demographics on Long Island are sufficiently different that the ridership is there, but not on MNR?

Jim

MN Jim wrote: I'm not sure why/how the LIRR justifies it - maybe the demographics on Long Island are sufficiently different that the ridership is there, but not on MNR?

Jim

I don't know though, I've riden the last Hudson Line train before, and it makes every stop, and it was quite full, so I'm sure there would be riders. Also, if they ran the service later on Firday and Saturday night, that would be a nice start. But I can't complain too much, it way better than what NJT offers. 11:49 pm is the latest they offer (to Morristown, which is where I use to live in NJ).

The cost of running all night service out of Grand Central Terminal should
not be that big. Metro-North has crews now that lay over all night in some
far away terminal when they could be making an night time trip. I would
bet that they could run the basic three lines with about four more crews
if need be.
As for dispatchers, they are on duty anyway and about all there is is some
deadhead equipment, the CSX freight jobs (not many of them anymore)
and one Amtrak round trip on the New Haven Line.
Basic service every ninety minutes to New Haven making all stops and to
Brewster making all stops. On the Hudson 90 minutes to Harmon with one
connection to Poughkeepsie during the night.
The excuse offered when the night owl trains came off was that they
wanted to close Grand Central for cleaning but to me that is a very poor
excuse.
The city never sleeps, the subway never sleeps, the Long Island Rail Road
never sleeps but Metro-North sleeps every night. Does not make sense.
Please someone don't say freight interference, there are only TWO freight
customers on the whole New Haven Line between Bridgeport and New
Rochelle and there is nothing on the Harlem north of Mount Vernon.
There is more on the Hudson but not that much and they could surely
work around it.
Noel Weaver

freight wouldn't be a good excuse at all. CP runs along the hudson during rush hour 3 days a week.

perhaps there are NIMBYs against it ?

I for one would love to see some late night service. Once I've acctually been stuck in New York and was forced to take the Federal back to New Haven. I guess since the station is only really closed for a few hours a night, metro-north doesn't think its that big a deal to make people wait. Also I have heard that the homeless who once called GCT home were a problem, and if the place is closed it gives security a chance to kick them out. I could be wrong about that feel free to refute it.

I've ridden the last train out numerous times- on the Harlem and on the New Haven. Both are packed. Leads me to believe that everyone is riding for the same reason- they don't want to miss their ride home! In my naive, non-railroad opinion, I would tend to think that if people are rushing for the 1:20, they would pack in a 2:20 or a 3:20 just as well. I have no numbers or hard data to back this up. Maybe I wont care so much when I get older and I'm not out at the bars in the city all night! hehe. Um, not that I advocate that type of behavior or anything!

-otto-

I think the real reason for closing gct was to kick out the homeless. They couldnt close NYP because of a couple of Amtrak trains, and the LIRR kept operating. I think the closure is from the 80's when the homeless problem started to escalate because the SRO joints they used to live in got turned into condos. Was it the same time period that Hoboken began being closed for a few hours at night?

You don't need to close the terminal to kick out the homeless. If that was the case then you would need to close NYC at midnight and put them all on a ferry to Jersey City.

MN riders pack the last train (I've done the 1:20 to CRT with the POK connection once in the past few months). I think Otto is right that the reason the train is packed is because you'd have to wait 5 hours for another one. I know that I (and many others) would stay later in NYC if the last train was later.

I don't see why they could not experiment with one more late night train, even if it was just on the weekend (Saturday and Sunday mornings). For example:

3:20 AM Hudson local to Croton-Harmon, change for the shuttle to Poughkeepsie [based on the current TT, the train would arrive at Croton at 4:25 AM, and the shuttle would arrive at Poughkeepsie at 5:27]

3:30 Harlem local to Southeast, maybe change for a shuttle to Wassaic (I don't know if there is enough ridership to justify this -- there is no connection on the 1:30 Harlem local). This train would pull into Southeast at 5:11 AM.

3:30 New Haven local to NH, arriving in NH at 5:53

Personally, I think that with proper marketing (Stay Late -- Be Safe -- Don't Drive -- we'll get you home!) they could probably run 3AM trains with decent loads EVERY night. When I lived on LI those late night trains had decent crowds on the weekdays and the weekends.

I've never given any though to a surcharge, but if the train is only running for a handful of people (less than a carload), it may not be out of the question if the demand is strong (to keep the trains in spite of their low ridership).

Some of the people I talk to in the morning on the Upper Hudson line want more service (or adjusted service) anyway -- perhaps we could combine the mutual discontent into some sort of campaign.

Nester

JoeG wrote:I think the real reason for closing gct was to kick out the homeless. They couldnt close NYP because of a couple of Amtrak trains, and the LIRR kept operating. I think the closure is from the 80's when the homeless problem started to escalate because the SRO joints they used to live in got turned into condos. Was it the same time period that Hoboken began being closed for a few hours at night?

If the MTA owned Penn Station, I would imagine they would close it down also. However, who really owns Grand Central: the MTA or whoever was the successor to Penn Central?

If it were up to me, I would run one train on each line, arriving at GCT around 3:05, and leaving at 3:30 AM, all as super locals along the main lines.

The MTA now owns Grand Central. For a long time they didnt, but around 10 years ago they finally bought it from the successors of Penn Central. After they owned it is when they did the North Access and the lower level renovations.

I'm not sure about that. I remember back before the restoration of GCT was begun, the MTA finally got APU (Penn Central's successor) to agree to LEASE GCT, with the option to buy later. With that lease in hand, the MTA agreed to restore the terminal. I've never heard whether MTA consummated the option to purchase the property, and a search of NYC property records online only shows the lease transactions in 1994 and 1995 - no deed transfer at that time or later.

Also, contractors doing work for MNR or the MTA must still list APU in their insurance documents.

I'll check next week, but I believe the MTA still only leases the property.

Jim

I think he is right Jim the Terminal is owned by MTA. the park avenue tunnel and GCT interlocking are leased however.

In the back of my mind, I believe MetroNorth purchased GCT as part of a deal that relieved American Premium Underwriters of some SuperFund liabilities which might have stemmed from PennCentral days.

That was about 1998, and involved mucho politicians of both parties. Once GCT was landmarked about 1991, APU lost the incentive to hold the building if they couldn't build a second tower on top of it.