"Night Owl" service

The point is that under a new, revived Night Owl service, you could still kick people out at 1:30. They would just leave the terminal open so that those people who want to catch 3:30 trains could.

Nester

I don't think they could if they had a valid ticket. Go over to Penn Station or the Port Authority and see what it looks like every night. If your doors are open they will come.

You close the station at 1:30 for an hour and a half. Then reopen
a specific set of doors and let people in ,
and only let them go to the train.
You could use movable gates to direct people.

Yeah, and then the incremental new revenue you've earned from running the all night service goes straight into the pockets of the 1.4 persons you'd need to employ to move those gates. No new revenue, no reason to run the service. Given today's funding picture, it most definitely will NOT run if it's a net drain on the bottom line.

Jim

MN Jim you are always the optimist.

I prefer "realist". :-)

Jim

While we're on the subject of fantasy scheduling, I think the first inbound train should be earlier. The way it is now, anyone who commutes from the burbs to the city and has to be at work at 6am or earlier is out of luck.

Looking back in my Hudson Line timetables...

1977 - Last train out of GCT on weekday was 1:20 AM. (MTA funded, operated by Conrail)

1970 - Last train out of GCT on weekday was 1:20 AM. (MTA funded, operated by Penn Central).

1969 - Last train out of GCT on weekday was 1:20 AM (Privately operated by Penn Central).

1967 - Last train out of GCT on weekday was 1:20 AM (Privately operated by New York Central).

1964 - Last train out of GCT on weekday was 11:10 PM (Privately operated by NYC)

1940 - "The Seneca" made limited stops and departed at 11:45 PM (Privately operated by NYC).

I'll dig out my Harlem Line timetables where I *know* I saw Night Owl service advertised and get back to you all.

-otto-

OK! Now I know where I got this "Night Owl" idea from. Form 113, effective October 1, 1967- NYC Harlem Division suburban timetable.

Monday-Friday:

Train 611/901: Lv GCT 1:00 am, made all stops to Brewster.
Train 501: Lv GCT 2:00 am, made all stops to North White Plains**
Train 681: Lv GCT 3:00 am, made all stops to North White Plains*
Train 683: Lv GCT 4:00 am, made all stops to North White Plains*
Train 685: Lv GCT 5:00 am, made all stops to North White Plains*

* Excluding 125th Street, and all Bronx stations except Fordham.
** Exluding all Bronx stations except Fordham.

There was a similar reverse service operating from North White. These Night Owl Trains were also run on weekends. A note in the timetable says "Experimental service until February 4, 1968." (Three days into the Penn Central merger?). There was also a 50c surcharge for these trains. Maybe this was an experiment only carried out on the Harlem Division? Either way, looks like the railroad tried it once. Examining the other timetables in my collection, it appears that the suburban service on the Harlem was similar to the Hudson.

-otto-

For ages, the New Haven Railroad had trains out of GCT between 1:30 AM
and 5:30 AM. In the April, 1955 timetable, we had train 352/362 at
2:50 AM on Saturday and 3:00 AM Monday through Friday, 324 at 3:25AM
on Sunday and 380 at 4:45 AM Monday through Friday.
Inbound we had 389 in at 2:10 AM and 99 at 5:12 AM Tuesday through
Sunday plus 101 on Monday at 3:55 AM.
Train 380 came off soon after this timetable but eventually another train
no. 202 with a single MU car ran Monday through Friday.
I am not sure that there were any night owl trains on the Hudson, will need to check on that one.
Noel Weaver

I shudder to think of what the car cleaners would find after the night owl service on the weekends. When I was at Fordham (nights 1994-00), I used to take the last local to Noroton Heights at ~2am after "studying" at Clarke's, and it was an experience. There were occaisions when I thought it would have been wiser to find a nice comfy couch at the library...

Clarke's was one of the finest places to advance scholarship in all of New York State!

This is a pretty interesting thread.

First, let's set the record straight.

Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis spearheaded what was supposed to be a Grand Central RESTORATION. Before the poor woman's body was cold, it turned into a full scale RENOVATION. Big Difference. Jackie wanted the theatre returned. Her plan had nothing to do with these useless, overpriced stores that replaced businesses which provided essential services to people on the run - in both directions.

Grand Central was left in a state of decay by Penn Central, then the company as you've all figured out, let it slide until making a deal with the MTA. We needed a staircase on the east side like a hole in the head. The original designers even nixed the plan, as it never got off of paper. Would someone please bring back the dramatic KODAK Kodachrome and Ektachrome advertisements there, please? Things used to be affordable, and there was even a cheap bar where the Discovery Channel store stands now. It was a great place where you could kill a little time when you missed the train, and be right by the gates!

In the old days, and I mean pre-renovation, there were large signs over the hallways at either end of the waiting rooms leading to the east and west, by the gates. You could read those signs from anywhere in the waiting room. The big board was readable from almost anywhere, given a good angle, and there were high, large black and white signs right at the gates. Now, we have little AIG electric signs which you can't see from a distance, and little TV's that you can't see for the tourists huddled in front of them.

Night Owl Service? We're getting there, it's all relevant.

Years ago, the grand waiting room was ripe with homeless. Consequently, that got killed in the restoration, and is now that useless site for art shows, and Yuppie Squash Court promotions. Now, we have the two "Ticketed Waiting Areas", as if MN Police couldn't properly patrol the old waiting room (behind the ticket counter, for you newbies). The police just didn't bother.

What does all of this have to do with NIGHT OWL SERVICE? EVERYTHING!

Otto has delivered the goods on the inception of Night Owl Service, but Otto, I think that service was running as early as 1965. I will have to dig in my stuff for a look.

What was NIGHT OWL SERVICE? You guys forget the infrastructure of the time it ran, and accompanying factors of then and now. Nobody here has yet to mention that the Night Owl trains were simple RDC's, running once per hour between 3 AM and 5 AM. Did New York Central run a two car train to NWP or Harmon and switch? NO. That practice didn't begin until later years. The Central ran an RDC right from the platform at GCT. Cheap, efficient. One motorman, one conductor, one car to monitor, and they didn't fill it.

WHAT KILLED NIGHT OWL SERVICE?

Penn Central. They wanted out of the passenger train business so badly that they tried every dirty trick to kill the railroad. First they allowed it to decay, then they pulled trains, then they allowed it to rot some more. Even under MTA, there was talk about tearing up the Harlem Division in 1978 because the condition of it was so bad. The service became so disgusting, that it drove people to cars. Killing Night Owl Service was the first step. Stop 24 hour service, and you degrade your versatility and usefulness. If you kill it, they will leave. Boy, did they all ever!

IS THERE A DEMAND FOR NIGHT OWL SERVICE? YOU BET THERE IS!

Everybody who has nixed inbound service so far in this thread has obviously never commuted in either direction for "Shift Work", or doesn't know anyone who does. If you have ever worked overnight on a "Night Shift", or for any reason at the top of any skyscraper with a view of the East River, you will see something most never imagined. The traffic flow INTO the city, across the bridges, increases dramatically just before 3 AM. If you guys were correct, the LIRR would shut down at the same time as Metro North.

There is ALWAYS a demand for 24 hour service, in both directions, to a city like New York.

In the old days, Grand Central was open 24 hours. It was filthy, and dangerous at times. It became a haven for riff-raff, homeless tried to make it a fulltime residence in everyplace from the waiting room, to the toilet, to the upstairs corridors to even the lower level tunnels. It was truly a horror. It cost $$$ to patrol, and unruly patrons who missed the "Vomit Comet" because they were ploughed, created problems, rather than passing out quietly on a bench until the first train out.

If Penn Central had NOT killed Night Owl Service, people would never have been stranded, and a 24 hour flow of patrons would have forced the authorities to address the undesireable loitering element. The homeless debacle in GCT would most likely have never occured.

Someone woke up in the days of MTA and realized that if you don't have trains running 24 hours, you can close the doors, and toss everybody into the street. I recall there was an outcry at the time. It wasn't from people worrying about the Homeless being forced into Lexington Avenue, but from parents worried sick about irresponsible kids who missed the last train. Justifiably, they didn't want them wandering all hours in Manhattan. Good point. Naturally, it fell on deaf ears.

Sooooo, they closed the Terminal, and for the first time, they could scrub the place down while unimpeeded, every night. Closing the terminal has helped make GCT the clean place it has been restored to, after a near 30 year hiatus. Closing has alleviated the homeless problem at GCT, because they can't camp there. Now, young Dum-Dums who can't read a watch nor figure out a schedule, find an after hours club, if they're old enough to get in (I don't know what the under 21 set does), so why would Metro North want to initiate the renaissance of the Night Owls?

Economics. Someone pointed out that MN crews hold over on remote ends. If you can run a train out, you might as well get your money's worth to the employees and run it back. There's a reason to restore Night Owls, but the cost of reopening Grand Central - and a potential can of worms with it, is a potential case against it.

Experimentally, it would be interesting to run a 3 AM outbound departure. I know of several people, on occasion myself, who are forced to drive in or stay over in the city for work, as the first inbound train isn't EARLY ENOUGH. There are more people who work from 4 AM to Noon, than most realize.

If you don't agree with my reasoning for restoring this service, fine. But given the overdevelopment outside of the city, I agree whole heartedly with the writer who said that within ten years, Night Owl Service will be a necessity.

Otto? You brought up a deeper topic than I think any of these guys realize. As the demise of Night Owl Service changed the entire face of GCT and effected outlying development, so shall it's eventual resurrection. It's only a matter of time.

For now, if you want it back, you will have to WHINE for it.

Dieter.

A couple of issues with the previous post, the Penn Central was operating
service out of Grand Central under the direction of the MTA and the State
of Connecticut so the ultimate decision whether to or not to operate the
night owl service rested with New York and Connecticut.
The night owl trains did NOT operate with RDC equipoment, they operated
with MU equipment.
On the commuter railroad we are/were ENGINEERS not motormen.
I can recall cases where it actually increased crew costs by not running
all night service.
Noel Weaver

Noel Weaver wrote:A couple of issues with the previous post, the Penn Central was operating
service out of Grand Central under the direction of the MTA and the State
of Connecticut so the ultimate decision whether to or not to operate the
night owl service rested with New York and Connecticut.
The night owl trains did NOT operate with RDC equipoment, they operated
with MU equipment.
On the commuter railroad we are/were ENGINEERS not motormen.
I can recall cases where it actually increased crew costs by not running
all night service.
Noel Weaver

Penn Central came to be on 2/1/68. The MCTA (later renamed MTA) was authorized in 1965. Penn Central filed for bankruptcy in 1970. Did the MTA subsidize commuter operations between 2/68 and 1976, when Conrail took over?

Nester