"Acela II" to be capable of 180 mph

TREnecNYP wrote:Might have been said previously, but the acela needs more cars. It might come as a shock to some, but they are often sold out or very full, every acela that i see is at least 80% full with people in most seats and in the cafe car. This train makes money, lets help it make more, "acela 2" or not!

- A

You really ought to look at the numbers before you post. Acela ridership declined by something like 11% in FY 09 vs. FY 08.

I know this is merely anecdotal evidence, but every Acela I've seen come through Newark lately while waiting on the platform for NJT has been packed. I don't know if it's just the mid to late afternoon runs, as those are the trains I tend to see. And I don't know if a lot of riders exit at Philly, but those trains coming out of NYP are consistently full.

MudLake wrote:

TREnecNYP wrote:Might have been said previously, but the acela needs more cars. It might come as a shock to some, but they are often sold out or very full, every acela that i see is at least 80% full with people in most seats and in the cafe car. This train makes money, lets help it make more, "acela 2" or not!

- A

You really ought to look at the numbers before you post. Acela ridership declined by something like 11% in FY 09 vs. FY 08.

I can look at trains even more efficiently with my own lil eyeballs. The drop is in line with the credit crisis & related job market issue, not a popularity/use decline issue. It will rebound, it will probably snag some air travelers too if it hasn't all ready. Important note: while all of the cars are not 100% full, the first class car is usually a no-seater.

- A

What customers observe and what the carrier observes can be very different. While an unrealistic edge case, imagine that half the trains run completely full while the other half run completely empty. The carrier reports that business was terrible with only 50% of the seats full. Meanwhile, the customers report that business is booming because every train they were on was compeltely full. And both observations are correct.
You can modify that to more realistic numbers but more people see the full trains than see the emptier trains simply because the full trains are where the customers are.

MudLake wrote: You really ought to look at the numbers before you post. Acela ridership declined by something like 11% in FY 09 vs. FY 08.

mostly a pricing issue which more seats could solve. truth be told. most Acela's could probably be eight with a few, esp at rush hours and on sundays, 14 cars long. Amtrak basically chooses it's acela ridership with pricing. at the same price woudl you take a regional over an Acela?

Sure you could have longer Acelas but they'll take longer to get over the road as speed restrictions normally apply from head end to rear end so the longer the train, the more time spent under the restriction. It's another extreme example but say you have a very short 10 mph restriction. A light engine might spend about five seconds in the speed restriction plus deceleration and acceleration time. The two mile long coal drag spends 12 minutes in it plus deceleration and acceleration.
While adding two cars might seem nothing, it will add a second or two here and two or three there. Make a train 100 feet longer and it takes an extra seven seconds to clear a 10 mph restriction and three seconds to clear a 25 mph restriction. If you have enough of them, you'll be adding a minute or two to the schedule to allow for them.

lstone19 wrote:What customers observe and what the carrier observes can be very different. While an unrealistic edge case, imagine that half the trains run completely full while the other half run completely empty. The carrier reports that business was terrible with only 50% of the seats full. Meanwhile, the customers report that business is booming because every train they were on was compeltely full. And both observations are correct.
You can modify that to more realistic numbers but more people see the full trains than see the emptier trains simply because the full trains are where the customers are.

Yes, I understand your point but until someone can identify how many Acela trains are sold out in a month it's really not relevant. For all we know, few if any are sold out and people saying "they appear to be packed" isn't really a refutation. My strong belief is a drop in Acela ridership of 11% is not accompanied by more trains being sold out. If anyone can find evidence of the contrary it would be good to know.

lstone19 wrote:Sure you could have longer Acelas but they'll take longer to get over the road as speed restrictions normally apply from head end to rear end so the longer the train, the more time spent under the restriction. It's another extreme example but say you have a very short 10 mph restriction. A light engine might spend about five seconds in the speed restriction plus deceleration and acceleration time. The two mile long coal drag spends 12 minutes in it plus deceleration and acceleration.
While adding two cars might seem nothing, it will add a second or two here and two or three there. Make a train 100 feet longer and it takes an extra seven seconds to clear a 10 mph restriction and three seconds to clear a 25 mph restriction. If you have enough of them, you'll be adding a minute or two to the schedule to allow for them.

Good points all around. I believe amtk all ready has a simple work-around for this... There are several acela schedules, some have more stops some have just 5 or 6... If you gain time by adding cars, simply have those longer trains skip more intermediate stations to make up for that time, i mean even dropping one stop could equalize the loss in time. 14 car trains means you could have 2 (or 3) first class cars, a quiet car, a cafe car, several biz class cars, and maybe even a lounge car where you simply sit and look out the window or watch TV. This would utterly kill the shuttle commuter airline hop route, especially if the empire & keystone corridor were fully upgraded & electrified eventually. Obviously certain things, political & otherwise applies to the Broad Way & Water Level territories that complicate stuff.

- A

The Acela Express trainset consists of two power cars, a cafe car, a first class car, and four business class cars, semi-permanently coupled together ( 2 Locomotives and 6 cars). Amtrak train crews consist of an Engineer, a Conductor, and at least one Assistant Conductor. Acelas also have an on-board service crew consisting of two First Class Attendants and a Cafe Car Attendant. On select Acela Express trains, Amtrak additionally employs a cart attendant who travels through the cars as a roving Cafe Car, serving light snacks and beverages.

I assume the numbers of cars on an Acela train is based upon how many passengers and how quickly the service crew can attend the passengers. Adding cars to trains may require adding service crew members to the train too. How many cars can an Assistant Conductor handle? I'm assuming around three cars, so if we're going to add cars to Acela trains, lets do so in ratio of three (whatever an extra Assistant Conductor can handle).

Has Amtrak considered running two Acela trainsets coupled together into one train like MUs?

electricron wrote: Has Amtrak considered running two Acela trainsets coupled together into one train like MUs?

Acela sets cannot be operated at high speed coupled together due to a design flaw in the couplers.

I think Florida will tack on 5 trainsets to the Acela II order. Things are looking very favorable right now for Florida to get money for the Orlando-Tampa line. Florida's plans call for electric trainsets designed for 250 passengers and a top speed of 162 mph. Florida would be looking for delivery and testing in about 2015.

jstolberg wrote:I think Florida will tack on 5 trainsets to the Acela II order. Things are looking very favorable right now for Florida to get money for the Orlando-Tampa line. Florida's plans call for electric trainsets designed for 250 passengers and a top speed of 162 mph. Florida would be looking for delivery and testing in about 2015.

If they build a proper HSR segregated track they would be silly to use Acela trains on it. They should order a lower weight fast train from some established design.

only FRA approved design is the Acela, there won't be a totally segregated right of way, it will be part of railway system of USA and thus under FRA rules.

MudLake wrote: Yes, I understand your point but until someone can identify how many Acela trains are sold out in a month it's really not relevant. For all we know, few if any are sold out and people saying "they appear to be packed" isn't really a refutation. My strong belief is a drop in Acela ridership of 11% is not accompanied by more trains being sold out. If anyone can find evidence of the contrary it would be good to know.

To wit, I'd imagine some trains are sold out more often than others. Fast, modern trains can and will sell, the 11% argument is someone specious, Amtrak decides ridership with pricing. as noted, it's back up 4%.

Suburban Station wrote:

MudLake wrote: Yes, I understand your point but until someone can identify how many Acela trains are sold out in a month it's really not relevant. For all we know, few if any are sold out and people saying "they appear to be packed" isn't really a refutation. My strong belief is a drop in Acela ridership of 11% is not accompanied by more trains being sold out. If anyone can find evidence of the contrary it would be good to know.

To wit, I'd imagine some trains are sold out more often than others. Fast, modern trains can and will sell, the 11% argument is someone specious, Amtrak decides ridership with pricing. as noted, it's back up 4%.

Until you identify how many trains are sold out (no one has!) you can't say capacity is a problem. The "-11%" passenger volume is not a specious argument at all considering revenue, which is the true measure of overall value purchased and delivered, fell by 12.5% in FY 09 from FY 08.