Proposed PATCO Expansion

Matthew Mitchell wrote:WHOIS indicates that that is an advocate's site and not official. I'll let the owner comment further.

Thank you for the segue, Matt.

This is my website, and it was never my intention to confuse or mislead anyone into thinking that this was somehow an official DRPA/PATCO or perhaps NJ Transit website. From my own perspective, I thought that this was self-evident given the simplistic nature of the site.

As a result of the feedback above, I have changed the template, and have added a disclaimer as a second paragraph on the homepage. Hopefully this with eliminate any further confusion.

This does not represent any change in policy by DRPA/PATCO. And I'm certainly not trying to lead a movement. This is merely an informational website about what I feel is a better way to provide rail transit in Gloucester County. And, if you agree, it wouldn't hurt to contact your state, county, and local government leaders.

I didn't see the who is. I remember somehow came across this while on Patco's website. Mind you I could just be imagining this though because it was late at night =P

I didn't see the who is. I remember somehow came across this while on Patco's website. Mind you I could just be imagining this though because it was late at night =P

[apologies if the reply gets doubled]

Bill knows his stuff....

When I asked about information at the open houses, I thought I was told that the website was http://www.glassborocamdenline.com. Since that website has not been updated since 2010 I doubt that the project is progressing. I hope that I am wrong.

The current state of the project is this:

DRPA is no longer the lead agency. DRPA has contracted for the Environmental Impact Study to be undertaken because they were in the process of developing the RFP when DRPA also announced (in October 2010) that they would no longer be the lead agency - meaning that DRPA would not build or operate the system. DRPA is using DRPA money to fund the study, but NJ Transit has made the commitment that NJ Transit would reimburse DRPA for the study costs.

There is no lead agency at this time. NJ Transit has not formally agreed to take control of the Camden-Glassboro project.

Several leading political figures, including NJ State Senate President Steve Sweeney and Camden County Freeholder Director (also DRPA Board member) Jeff Nash, have stated in news reports that some portion of the line could be operating in approximately seven years. I have yet to hear or see a factual basis, or even an explanation, to support this claim.

F.Y.I. The Pitman Economic Development Commission recently (March 27) held a public meeting for the purpose of seeking feedback concerning the results of a public survey that sought to identify stakeholder concerns and ideas regarding a comprehensive plan for Central Business District revitalization. A prominent plan element is the issue of rail station location and associated impacts.

The meeting was attended by Andrew Svekla of the Delaware Valley Regional Planning Commission. I asked Mr. Svekla about the lack of a lead agency and funding for the Camden-Glassboro rail line. He responded that DVRPC believes that NJ Transit will - eventally - become the official lead agency, with the obvious implication being that this occurs in a post-Christie environment. He also felt that the Camden-Glassboro line will most likely move forward under the same Design, build, Operate and Maintain (DBOM) financing structure implemented for the RiverLine.

I think the other key context is that the Glassboro-Camden Line would be funded and advanced to construction as a South Jersey quid pro quo for a major North Jersey project (i.e. "Son of ARC").

Actually... There was a comment made NJ transportation commissioner James Simpson about the PATCO expansion in today's article in the Inquirer about Amtrak's Gateway project:

Simpson told the South Jersey business leaders that the Christie administration also remained committed to an 18-mile light-rail line between Glassboro and Camden. The long-proposed line is now the subject of an $8.1 million environmental assessment being conducted by the Delaware River Port Authority and paid for by NJ Transit.

Simpson said it remained unclear who would pay to build the $1.6 billion line or who would operate the trains if it were built.

“The feds are going to have to be our partners,” Simpson said.

The line would run alongside an existing Conrail freight line through Glassboro, Pitman, Mantua, Wenonah, Woodbury, Deptford, West Deptford, Westville, Bellmawr, Brooklawn, Gloucester City, and Camden.

It would connect to PATCO and River Line trains at the Walter Rand Transportation Center in Camden, where passengers could catch trains to Philadelphia or Trenton.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/new_j ... unnel.html

Would it be possible for them to run into Philly at grade over the bfb perhaps looping the convention center?

Suburban Station wrote:Would it be possible for them to run into Philly at grade over the bfb perhaps looping the convention center?

My (non-expert) opinion would be no unless there were significant infrastructure accommodations. PATCO is 3rd-rail and HLP.

JeffK wrote:

Suburban Station wrote:Would it be possible for them to run into Philly at grade over the bfb perhaps looping the convention center?

My (non-expert) opinion would be no unless there were significant infrastructure accommodations. PATCO is 3rd-rail and HLP.

Jrff is certainly correct with respect to PATCO operations.

Forgetting the multiplicity of institutional issues for the moment, it might be physically possible for RiverLine trains to cross the bridge on the outermost lanes if:

1)The road surface support structure of the bridge is strong enough to bear the weight of RiverLine vehicles. While there was extra support built under those lanes for trolley operation, I don't know that it is substantial enough to support RiverLine vehicles.

2)You can identify realistic pathways for Riverline vehicles entering and exiting the bridge. This is esoecially problematic in the westbound direction.

3)RiverLine vehicles are actually capable of making turns (i.e. have the clearance) at street corner intersections in Philadelphia. See 4th and Cooper in Camden for an example.

4)The operation at grade in Philadelphia did not have to comply with the Pennsylvania law requiring streetcar systems to use broad guage trackage.

In short, don't expect the RiverLine to operate into Philadelphia.

What law requiring streetcar systems to use broad guage? I also learned as a child that there was a law, but now that I try googling for it I can't find anything that says it was a law. Do we know for sure it ever was a law, and if so, is it still in effect?

For what it's worth, Penn's Landing Trolley-Buckingham Valley Trolley Association ran on Delaware Ave standard gauge track

Patrick Boylan wrote:What law requiring streetcar systems to use broad guage? I also learned as a child that there was a law, but now that I try googling for it I can't find anything that says it was a law. Do we know for sure it ever was a law, and if so, is it still in effect?

Here, allow me: http://bit.ly/NcEfIi

I don't think it could have been a law unless the law was specifically restricted to apply only to cities with a population exceeding a certain number or something like that. I may get clobbered here, but weren't Reading, Harrisburg, Lancaster, and some other places standard gauge?

ExCon90 wrote:I don't think it could have been a law unless the law was specifically restricted to apply only to cities with a population exceeding a certain number or something like that. I may get clobbered here, but weren't Reading, Harrisburg, Lancaster, and some other places standard gauge?

I heard it was a law enacted a lonnnng time ago to prevent the railroads from buying up existing trolley properties and running freight on the streets.