Potential MBTA Southern NH Service

Folks, there has been a sea change to the north...

As overly optimistic as that quote is, the winds are (slowly) changing in NH. The fact that the state is even considering this is actually progress, despite the entrenched "I don't/won't use it, so why should I pay for it" attitude that has always been strong and often combines with a limited tax base to preclude "societal good" types of investment.

I think the only way this gets funded is with outside money, and even then, elements of the state will complain about maintenance and upkeep. If there was a way to get service like this to contribute to the tourist economy as well, then maybe it'd be an easier sell.

From what I have read, the folks in Nashua and Manchester have been mostly supportive of the project, with most of the opposition being from the libertarian right population of NH, with groups like AFP NH spearheading the opposition, using the common "rail is a 19th century boondoggle" fallacy. The main problem is in what way it will be paid for, which is an advantage of implementing Amtrak service over MBTA service because Amtrak can be paid for with outside money

>Montreal

Is there trackage between Concord and Montreal?

There used to be 3 ways to get from Concord to Montreal. Unfortunately all 3 ways are either rail trails or under route 25.

The only way it happens is if it’s done the way the 1980s trial was done. The feds will need to pick up the tab for ops outside the MBTA district. Remember, this is the same state that had a town (Plaistow) put up a fight over a free train station!

wicked wrote: ↑Sat Dec 18, 2021 2:39 pm The only way it happens is if it’s done the way the 1980s trial was done. The feds will need to pick up the tab for ops outside the MBTA district. Remember, this is the same state that had a town (Plaistow) put up a fight over a free train station!

That whole Plaistow thing was probably more about the layover yard they wanted to build there than the station itself, but it was still a stupid outcome, but in anycase, an extension serving Nashua and Manchester is much more important than one serving just Plaistow, and if NH has any brains it will realize that and not just dismiss it as a "boondoggle". Also yes, it will probably have to be done the way the 1980 trial was.

One way to do it would be to charge a fare that covers operating costs. Are passengers willing to pay their fair share? And can NHDOT hire a vendor with economical costs?

I don't think that's very likely, the prices will likely be the same as on the rest of the Commuter Rail, besides that would probably lower the line's popularity. I think they will either go with raising taxes (the main reason the libertarians are freaking out) or federal funding, which I am not sure the feds would be willing to allow for a 55 mile Commuter Rail line, we could hope they would though

mbrproductions wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 3:43 pm From what I've heard, NH can't pay for it because they have no property tax and because state law does not allow money made from the highways to be used for anything other than the highways, which is a stupid law if you ask me.

NH may not have an income tax or a sales tax, but their property taxes are through the roof.

Since I am part-owner of a business up there, a few years ago I looked into buying a house in a NH town bordering the Connecticut River. The house was valued at half of what my Boston-area house was valued, but the property tax was twice what I'm paying.

whoops, seems like I got my taxes all mixed up lol, I guess the reason their property tax is so high is to make up for what they could have made from income and sales taxes. In any case, the nay-sayers claim that it would skyrocket NH taxes, is that true, or is it just a fear-mongering exaggeration?

So, then you would have to create a transportation district and bill the member cities and towns. Those outside the district get a free ride, those in the district complain that they are paying for the freeloaders, or their assessments are unfair, or that since they are paying they should have their own station. Didn't work so well for the MBTA which now gets almost all of their money from sales tax or from the state (aka income tax).

mbrproductions wrote: ↑Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:57 am I don't think that's very likely, the prices will likely be the same as on the rest of the Commuter Rail, besides that would probably lower the line's popularity. I think they will either go with raising taxes (the main reason the libertarians are freaking out) or federal funding, which I am not sure the feds would be willing to allow for a 55 mile Commuter Rail line, we could hope they would though

They could charge a price higher than the MBTA or Downeaster. If you don't like it you have to drive to an MBTA or Downeaster station.. They could run as an extension of the MBTA Lowell Line, with NHDOT paying the subsidy for the extension beyond Lowell or a new state line station. Or NHDOT could hire an operator to run a shuttle service from Lowell.

NHDOT subsidizing service north of Lowell is the only option. Public transportation will NEVER be cost neutral just like every other mode of human transportation. Nashua and Manchester (thusly the state of NH) would significantly benefit economically from having the service and the decades old influx of sprawlers would likely accelerate. There's absolutely an ROI that the state of NH would realize from adding the service, but the scales haven't yet been tipped enough to favor the south-of-the-border transplants over the old timers who like it the way it was. The shift is inevitable and I believe they're rapidly approaching that tipping point, but they're still not quite there.

Glad you could join the conversation CR, I too believe that the turning point is near, a Commuter Rail line connecting Boston to Manchester or at the very least Nashua makes too much sense to immediately dismiss just because a couple of 60s kids who like having cars as their only mode of transportation are calling it a boondoggle, traffic on I-93 is only ever going to get worse whether they like it or not, and Commuter Buses have time and time again proven themselves to be vastly inferior to Commuter Rail. I genuinely think the only thing holding this project back is the fact that the NHDOT would need to get their hands on some serious taxpayer dollars to pay for the service, which in a state like New Hampshire may be a difficult thing to do.

I wonder if they did a study to see if would be feasible to put the burden of the cost to operate the NH portion on the rider's fare to cross the state line?

SEPTA operates under this model. Fares to the stations in New Jersey costs a few dollars more because the service across the state line is unsubsidized, but serves a need.