Potential MBTA Southern NH Service

This is probably counter to the holiday spirit, but as I was freeing up binder space for 2022 issues of RAILPACE by discarding 2008 issues, I reread the New England sections, and the same possibilities were being discussed a decade-plus ago with the same varying degrees of optimism.
Until and unless there is e a wholesale change in the mindset of the General Court helped by masses of non-New Hampshire funding, passenger rail won't get extended north of the Massachusetts border. New Hampshire will probably make Rtes. 3 and 93 6 lanes wide in each direction first. Hopefully, Massachusetts won't do the same.

You're exactly right about the age of this issue. A change in the political attitude of NH is the only thing that will initiate a lasting service. I do believe it is inevitable and so naturally we're closer to seeing it than we were in 2008 but obviously a definitive timeline is impossible to accurately predict.

New Hampshire needs to let go of its anti-rail rhetoric, every other state in New England has embraced rail with open arms, have seen the benefits, and want more rail. New Hampshire is embarrassingly the only state left in not just New England but the entire Northeast to still have this outdated anti-rail movement, and its all thanks to a combination of NIMBYs, and the typical libertarian selfishness.

jaymac wrote: ↑Thu Dec 23, 2021 8:39 am...Until and unless there is e a wholesale change in the mindset of the General Court helped by masses of non-New Hampshire funding, passenger rail won't get extended north of the Massachusetts border. New Hampshire will probably make Rtes. 3 and 93 6 lanes wide in each direction first. Hopefully, Massachusetts won't do the same.

NHDOT cost per lane mile of roads is 1/3 of MADOT. I bet NH could widen I-93 to 6 lanes in each direction for <5cents per passenger mile (with only one person in each car and the other 4-6 seats empty and available), while the operating costs alone (assuming capital infrastructure is free) for MBTA Commuter Rail are probably between 21cents and 50cents per passenger mile.

mbrproductions wrote:and the typical libertarian selfishness.

Sometimes libertarians have a point!

Have you a basis for any of your claims?

All I see are a bunch of Massachusetts and Southern NH (basically Northern MA) residents bashing another state, the same as the last go round.

Take a step back and before tossing haymakers realize that we are already inundated with property taxes (the most of which actually go to the schools to cover special needs and lack of federal and state reimbursement) and lack of a commercial base to offset the tax rate. Many folks in these towns can barely pay their heating bills or buy food (I know my wife runs 3 food pantries). How are you going to convince these people (and the politicians) that something that in reality will only benefit the southern 1/3 of the state will help them out?

There are plenty of wonks up here (like Free Staters aka ultra-Libertarians), and while dismissing something outright is always foolish, but you should not stereotype an entire state. If Commuter Rail was that easy it would have been implemented by now.

newpylong wrote: ↑Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:15 am ow are you going to convince these people (and the politicians) that something that in reality will only benefit the southern 1/3 of the state will help them out?

It's the same tired argument we hear from the Berkshires about why do they have to pay for the T. The answer is because the Berkshires directly benefit from being in the same state as a metropolis. Likewise, New Hampshire directly benefits from having people who can afford the crazy property taxes and booze (don't forget the booze!) thanks to their employment in the MA economy. You can live in Coos county and still benefit from an increase in state population, both politically and economically.

That thesis will likely be for the pro-commuter folks to prove if given the opportunity. They'll need to prove why it benefits John in Colebrook to pay for Bill down in Nashua to be able to ride the train to work in the city (when he chose to live 40 miles away). It's going to be a tough sell, made even tougher by Covid.

Maybe because Bill's Massachusetts job allows him to play property taxes that go to educating John's kids or educating Johns EMT driver when he has his MI.

Under the property-tax heavy NH tax system, the most sensible thing might be for the cities and towns with or near commuter rail stations to subsidize the service.

Even if the state were to subsidize commuter-rail service, it's possible that John in Colebrook, Barb in Wentworth's Location, and Steve in Errol would still be getting a higher fraction of state transportation dollars than their counterparts in Atkinson, Nashua, and Manchester. Maintaining all those miles of lightly-trafficked rural highways up in the North Country isn't free, and all those people down in southern NH presumably pay at least as much in meals tax, state fees, and whatnot as their counterparts up north. In other words, the claim that somehow people in one part of the state are paying for a service that only people in another part of the state get is often just nonsense.

If you provide the service without subsidies (or as few as possible), then you don't have the problem of people constantly clamoring for stuff paid for with Other People's Money. And you don't have the problem of subsidy money being in limited supply. Which is the problem everywhere but is obvious by design in NH.

I've been reading a little about highway funding. NH apparently does a good job with interstates and high priority roads, but literally doesn't have enough money to fix low priority state roads - fixing a couple of (low state priority but high local priority) bad state roads in 1 town would apparently exhaust the annual kitty for low priority roads for the entire state. Cities & towns are apparently even more strapped for funds for their roads, with lots of substandard bridges. I read about some money set aside for debt payments on I-93 widening, the rest of the gas tax and toll money MUST go to road projects, not transit projects I believe.

Massachusetts tries to achieve "balance" in Mass Transit spending by subsidizing a bunch of RTAs so that the state can sorta balance MBTA spending with per-capita spending elsewhere. Too bad the RTAs don't connect to each other or connect well to Amtrak. Too bad the RTAs don't "drive" "pilot" or "spearhead" Commuter Rail in their territories. CCRTA has probably done the most with the Cape Flyer, and not much recently. Having an RTA own a train station or parking garage helps a little but not much.

Arborwayfan wrote: ↑Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:23 pm Under the property-tax heavy NH tax system, the most sensible thing might be for the cities and towns with or near commuter rail stations to subsidize the service.

Even if the state were to subsidize commuter-rail service, it's possible that John in Colebrook, Barb in Wentworth's Location, and Steve in Errol would still be getting a higher fraction of state transportation dollars than their counterparts in Atkinson, Nashua, and Manchester. Maintaining all those miles of lightly-trafficked rural highways up in the North Country isn't free, and all those people down in southern NH presumably pay at least as much in meals tax, state fees, and whatnot as their counterparts up north. In other words, the claim that somehow people in one part of the state are paying for a service that only people in another part of the state get is often just nonsense.

Going to take a better comparison than that to sell it. "All those miles" are not rebuilt anywhere near as much as the dense mileage in Southern NH due to higher traffic volumes. The majority of taxes in the North Country (I also own property there) go to roads because there are no other local municipal services to speak of. So in reality, Nashua is not paying to maintain Route 26 through Dixville Notch. NH towns also get VERY little state funding to handle projects such as bridge or culvert replacements. The burden is local.

eustis22 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 28, 2021 2:27 pm Maybe because Bill's Massachusetts job allows him to play property taxes that go to educating John's kids or educating Johns EMT driver when he has his MI.

The counter argument would be Bill is going to find a way to get to Massachusetts if he wants that job regardless. The train just makes it easier (and cheaper).

BandA wrote: ↑Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:23 am Massachusetts tries to achieve "balance" in Mass Transit spending by subsidizing a bunch of RTAs so that the state can sorta balance MBTA spending with per-capita spending elsewhere. Too bad the RTAs don't connect to each other or connect well to Amtrak. Too bad the RTAs don't "drive" "pilot" or "spearhead" Commuter Rail in their territories. CCRTA has probably done the most with the Cape Flyer, and not much recently. Having an RTA own a train station or parking garage helps a little but not much.

I'm not sure I agree with you on this. LRTA connects to MBTA and MVRTA. PVTA connects to FRTA and WRTA. BAT connects with the T. Then you have PVTA, MBTA, MVRTA, FRTA, BRTA and WRTA that connect with Amtrak. I don't know much about the South Shore area but I'm sure the transit agencies connect down there too. With connecting to commuter rail well If the T already provides the service why should the local TA's for Worcester east. The PVTA connects with CTrans in Springfield and I don't think any of the other ones wold be worth it out west. Lastly FRTA, PVTA, WRTA all have transit hubs at the Amtrak Station.

"For the cities and towns with or near commuter rail stations to subsidize the service" can be a problem, as we had here in Virginia. For the first 23 years of Virginia Railway Express service, the VRE trains ran empty for the 6 miles between Fredericksburg and Spotsylvania (where the maintenance yard is) because Spotsylvania did not participate in funding VRE. Also, VRE can not be expanded outside its territory unless a local government contributes to the subsidies.

What if Nashua and Concord subsidized trains to Boston but Manchester did not? Would the trains not stop in Manchester?