All things Harrisburg (Keystone) Line

daybeers wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 7:57 am If it’s a commuter train then why is it $50 HAR-NYP?

A 3 hour "commuter train" WAS-NYP is $29 to $60 (Regional), or starting at $70 (Acela).

I've never seen a 3 hour actual commuter train.

Montauk on the LIRR is well north of 3 hours and there was one Ratbag who used to post in the LIRR Forum who made the commute, each way, each day. Plenty of other folks did it from the Hamptons, where it's at the very best 2.5 hours each way

Port Jervis to NY via Secaucus is perilously close to 3 hours, and usually over that off peak.


There was a group of SEPTA riders who used to go from Downingtown to Link Belt, which is about three hours each way, and with no bathroom to boot!

They do exist, the amount of people rushing to grab 600 or 642 in Paoli for New York was staggering

CNJGeep wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 3:19 pm Montauk on the LIRR is well north of 3 hours and there was one Ratbag who used to post in the LIRR Forum who made the commute, each way, each day. Plenty of other folks did it from the Hamptons, where it's at the very best 2.5 hours each way

I could argue it's not really 3 hours because of the note: Change trains at Jamaica/Babylon (diesel/electric train switch maybe?)

Meanwhile HAR-NYP is "one seat." There's two LIRR trains that are close... 2710/2798 at 2h32m/2h42m respectively.

Port Jervis to NY via Secaucus is perilously close to 3 hours, and usually over that off peak.

There was a group of SEPTA riders who used to go from Downingtown to Link Belt, which is about three hours each way, and with no bathroom to boot!

Was. Right now (looking at the schedules) that routing (Thorndale to Doylestown) only runs on the weekends. 6:34 to 7:52 to 8:59... 2h25m. Weekday is Thorndale-West Trenton... 6:11p to 7:30p to 8:26p... 2h15m. I'll call that "stretching it."

They do exist, the amount of people rushing to grab 600 or 642 in Paoli for New York was staggering

Okay, lets try to hew close to "end-to-end single-seat" of 3 hours...

Caltrain... 2h12m
SEPTA... 2h25m
MARC (MTA Maryland)... 2h10m
LIRR... 2h42m (CANNONBALLL!!!!)
Metro-North... West of Hudson, 2h24m... East of Hudson, 2h33m

...and everyone else I've probed has run times under 2 hours.

CNJGeep wrote: ↑Sat May 29, 2021 3:19 pm Montauk on the LIRR is well north of 3 hours and there was one Ratbag who used to post in the LIRR Forum who made the commute, each way, each day. Plenty of other folks did it from the Hamptons, where it's at the very best 2.5 hours each way

Port Jervis to NY via Secaucus is perilously close to 3 hours, and usually over that off peak.


There was a group of SEPTA riders who used to go from Downingtown to Link Belt, which is about three hours each way, and with no bathroom to boot!

They do exist, the amount of people rushing to grab 600 or 642 in Paoli for New York was staggering

I used to see people board the 640 (leaving Exton and Paoli before 630) in high numbers. The occasion I would take Amtrak due to a SEPTA delay I say about half the train would get off at 30th Street.

Dumb question but has Amtrak tried running services from Harrisburg down to the Philly airport? Would that be a future consideration to increase passenger count on the Keystone line?

PHLSpecial wrote: ↑Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:02 am Dumb question but has Amtrak tried running services from Harrisburg down to the Philly airport? Would that be a future consideration to increase passenger count on the Keystone line?

I was under the impression that Pennsylvania pays the subsidies needed for the Keystone trains.
Apparently SEPTA already serves the airport, why should Amtrak do so too? Is making a transfer that difficult to do at 30th Street Station?

The major problem I see extending the Keystone trains to the airport is that is going the wrong way needed to go towards New York City.

What if Amtrak runs a regional train between Harrisburg, Philadelphia, and New York City; then sends the train to the airport ~10 miles in the wrong direction, adding ~20 miles to the train trip and 20-30 minutes to the entire train trip. Checking the Keystone schedule, it takes around 3 hours and 30 minutes for a one trip, or 7 hours for a round trip, all the way as is. Adding 20-30 minutes to the train's trip towards New York City also adds the same 20-30 minutes to the trip back towards Harrisburg.

Congrats, you just made the round trip longer than one 8 hour shift - the railroad union will surely love you because now Amtrak will have to hire twice as many crew.
Of course, the State of Pennsylvania having to pay for the additional financial loss with higher subsidies paying the extra wages will surely dislike you.

When proposing changes to a train's itinerary, remember to look for all the consequences arising from it. What off hand looks like a promising idea turns into a scour lemon upon closer scrutiny.

electricron wrote: ↑Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:16 pm

PHLSpecial wrote: ↑Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:02 am Dumb question but has Amtrak tried running services from Harrisburg down to the Philly airport? Would that be a future consideration to increase passenger count on the Keystone line?

I was under the impression that Pennsylvania pays the subsidies needed for the Keystone trains.
Apparently SEPTA already serves the airport, why should Amtrak do so too? Is making a transfer that difficult to do at 30th Street Station?

The major problem I see extending the Keystone trains to the airport is that is going the wrong way needed to go towards New York City.

What if Amtrak runs a regional train between Harrisburg, Philadelphia, and New York City; then sends the train to the airport ~10 miles in the wrong direction, adding ~20 miles to the train trip and 20-30 minutes to the entire train trip. Checking the Keystone schedule, it takes around 3 hours and 30 minutes for a one trip, or 7 hours for a round trip, all the way as is. Adding 20-30 minutes to the train's trip towards New York City also adds the same 20-30 minutes to the trip back towards Harrisburg.

Congrats, you just made the round trip longer than one 8 hour shift - the railroad union will surely love you because now Amtrak will have to hire twice as many crew.
Of course, the State of Pennsylvania having to pay for the additional financial loss with higher subsidies paying the extra wages will surely dislike you.

When proposing changes to a train's itinerary, remember to look for all the consequences arising from it. What off hand looks like a promising idea turns into a scour lemon upon closer scrutiny.

Don’t crews usually switch at 30th Street?

Not to pile on (which I'm doing), it's an interesting example of "you can't get there from here." Going from Harrisburg to the airport via 30th St. lower level requires a crossover move at PHIL from track 3 to 2, to 1, to the (non-signaled) escape track, at 15 mph in between Acelas and Northeast Regionals in both directions -- don't even suggest that to Amtrak -- and using the upper level would require changing direction beyond the interlocking over the Schuylkill River, passing the platforms twice -- don't even suggest that to SEPTA. But as pointed out just above, changing from Keystone trains to the Airport Line is being done today.

...and everyone else I've probed has run times under 2 hours.

NJT NJCL Thru trains between NYP - Bay Head are 2:06 to 2:08

ExCon90 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:50 pm Not to pile on (which I'm doing), it's an interesting example of "you can't get there from here." Going from Harrisburg to the airport via 30th St. lower level requires a crossover move at PHIL from track 3 to 2, to 1, to the (non-signaled) escape track, at 15 mph in between Acelas and Northeast Regionals in both directions -- don't even suggest that to Amtrak -- and using the upper level would require changing direction beyond the interlocking over the Schuylkill River, passing the platforms twice -- don't even suggest that to SEPTA. But as pointed out just above, changing from Keystone trains to the Airport Line is being done today.

Most users are connecting on the SEPTA side anyway unless you are coming off a paired line or boarding at a Center City stop.

Of course for a short period around 1990 Amtrak operated from Atlantic City to Philadelphia Airport as part of a deal with Midway Airlines which ended after Midway went belly up. I imagine they would have had similar issues with crossing over that train at PHIL The ACY service never met expectations so Amtrak turned it over to NJT in 1995.

jonnhrr wrote: ↑Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:57 am The ACY service never met expectations so Amtrak turned it over to NJT in 1995.

NJT operated between AC and Lindenwold, then extended to 30 Street in 1995.

jonnhrr wrote: ↑Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:57 am Of course for a short period around 1990 Amtrak operated from Atlantic City to Philadelphia Airport as part of a deal with Midway Airlines which ended after Midway went belly up. I imagine they would have had similar issues with crossing over that train at PHIL The ACY service never met expectations so Amtrak turned it over to NJT in 1995.

But how many AC trains a day were there? A viable airport service would need a dozen or so moves in each direction throughout the day -- and Amtrak is thinking of half-hourly NYP-WAS Acelas at some times of the day, plus the Regionals.

Amtrak doesn't need to run to Philly Int'l Airport. Septa Regional Rail already serves the terminals so they should continue. As for the Keystone Corridor, I would love to see 110-125 mph speeds in more spots on the Keystone Corridor besides in Lancaster and Dauphin Counties like maybe rest of Malvern in places like through Thorndale. I look forward to seeing more high level platforms get built at the Keystone Corridor stations-I know that Downingtown is overdue. I believe that the current station location is supposed to get moved a little to the east to accommodate full length high level platforms. At Parkesburg Station, it should be easy, given the fact that the station is already on a straightaway. I would also like to possibly see a station added somewhere between Parkesburg and Lancaster. I know that in the past, there were proposals to build a station in Paradise.

Maybe someone knows the current status of the proposed station at Paradise -- it's a complex history involving a location on a curve in addition to funding issues. I believe that in addition to serving the local area, the plans included facilities for passengers to transfer to the Strasburg, making it the only (?) tourist railroad in the US reached directly by rail.