Amtrak Heritage Diners Thread

gokeefe wrote:Apparently MEC #15 MERRYMEETING drops off the radar but MEC #16 ARUNDEL survived for quite some time. Any further information is appreciated.

Must say, Mr. O'Keefe, I'm surprised to learn that Maine Central had a lightweight Coach named Arundel. That's of course where Seashore Trolley Museum is located - and on the Boston & Maine (route of the DownEaster).

Incidentially, the B&M also had a fleet of apparently same cars (possibly ordered together) that eventually were sold to the Wabash - a road that limited its ordering of new lightweight equipment to the 'spiffy" Blue Bird and the 'attractive' City of KC sets, six 12-4 "Blue--" Sleepers, and their share of the City of St Louis pool that was built to UP specifications.

Mr. Norman,

Funny you should mention that. I hadn't even given it a thought but you're quite right.

The question appears to open a topic more complex than initially considered at first sight. Arundel, Maine was part of Kennebunkport for quite some time during its history until it became a separate town, "North Kennebunkport" in 1915. The town then choose to rename itself "Arundel" in 1957.

Official History, Town of Arundel Maine
http://www.arundelmaine.org/index.asp?T ... DC5D796%7D

The town history states "Lord Arundel" as the source for the name but as there were several famous Lords Arundel in British history it isn't entirely clear which one is intended. Sir Thomas Howard (1585-1646), 21st Earl of Arundel, (2nd Earl of Arundel by some counts) appears to be the intended namesake assuming the one 'l' Arundel is the intended honoree.

Sir Thomas Howard Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_How ... of_Arundel

There is no obvious association with Maine. Given the apparent controversies that were ongoing with the town name in this era and other issues it appears possible that someone in Maine Central's management was trying to make a political statement. What exactly that was is not at all clear to me. I find the entire case doubly fascinating now because of this.

[EDIT(s): Added link for Sir Thomas Howard wiki, spelling]

gokeefe,

Here is some more information about these cars. This is from Randall & Anderson, The Official Pullman-Standard Library, Volume 10, Northeast Railroads (1991).

"In November of 1945, The BOSTON & MAINE and MAINE CENTRAL railroads jointly ordered sixteen 56 seat chair cars with 10 seat smoking lounges. The cars were delivered (eight to each railroad) in June and July of 1947 from the Osgood Bradly works of P-S at Worcester, Mass. as lot 6778, drawing W-46352."

These cars were named as follows:
Boston and Maine
Black Bird (road number 4803)
Blue Bird (4804)
Bobolink (4800)
Chickadee (4806)
Humming Bird (4802)
Oriole (4805)
Robin (4801)
Snow Bird (4807)

Maine Central
Abenaki (245)
Alamoosook (240)
Katahdin (242)
Kineo (246)
Parmachenee (243)
Pasamaquoddy* (247)
Sagadahoc (244)
Webhannet (241)
*so spelled in the roster, but a photo of the car on page 121 shows it as "PASSAMAQUODDY"

and at the same time, "four 24 seat dining - 18 seat lounge cars ... as lot 6778, drawing W-46544."

These cars were named as follows:
Boston and Maine
Bald Eagle (70)
Hermit Thrush (71)

Maine Central
Arundel (16)
Merry Meeting* (15)
*so spelled in the roster, but a photo of the car on page 130 shows it as "MERRYMEETING"

and lastly, four coach-smoking lounge-baggage cars ... as lot 6778, drawing W-46353.

These cars were named as follows:
Boston and Maine
Blue Jay (3801)
Purple Finch (3800)

Maine Central
Forest Queen (541)
Lumber King (540)

A photo on page 133, of school children examining cars 245 and 247, has the caption, "Names for the 24 cars for the B&M and MEC were selected by Grammer School children from communities along the route between Boston and Bangor. Perhaps these were the children who provided the names selected for the cars...." Grammar schools, in Maine, are known as Primary or Elementary schools elsewhere, grades K-6. Mine was North Grammar (gone now) in Waterville, two blocks from the Main Street crossing of the Maine Central Back Road.

It does not say who made the final selection of names from among what must have been hundreds of submissions.

Hope this info helps, gokeefe.

eastwind

My Sept 1975 Amtrak Car Assignment List that I copied when I left Santa Fr's Topeka Shops shows these as L and N cars. But nowhere in the list is any parentage prior to the last private owner given. They show as equipped with disc brakes, electro-mechanical air conditioning, 32 volt dc electrical system,14 counter, 8 seats and 18 lounge seats.

Thread Update:

AMTK 8381 Listing, Railcarphotos.com

"Last known location" for #8381 (ex-MEC #16, Arundel) is listed on this site as ANI Pharmaceuticals in Gulfport, MS with a notation of "sold to Hancock Port Commission in 1977". The site is showing current or "Updated" as of Aug 22, 2012.

Curiously a view of Google Satellite of the former ANI Pharmaceuticals facility at 3600 25th Avenue, Gulfport, MS appears to show a railroad passenger car in the back of the factory. Another look using Bing, Bird's Eye View, shows what appears to be a vestibule of a passenger car. The tracks in that location also show substantial over growth, meaning this car has been here for a very long time.

Additionally, no other passenger cars are ever listed as having been at the ANI Pharmaceuticals site. I am wondering if the listing regarding the 1977 sale is erroneous and perhaps this car is in fact the same one that has been there all along.

Thanks to anyone who can provide further information.

Reposted in part from the "Surviving Maine Central Passenger Equipment" thread in the B&M/MEC forum:

gokeefe wrote:

eastwind wrote:That these cars were in Amtrak service—or at least ownership—between 1971 and 1977 is a fascinating footnote. Where did they run? Is it possible some of us may have actually ridden in them and not known it? And what became of them after their retirement?

First, thanks for the question as I think I can now make a guess as to what the timeline for MEC #16 is. The original listing on the icrr.net website shows present position in Gulfport at the top with the listing "(sold to Hancock County Port Commission in 1977)" at the bottom. The original posters in the Railway Preservation News forums thread read this as Amtrak -> ANP Pharmaceuticals -> Hancock County Port Commission. In other words the parenthetic was read as an update or an addendum to the original listing, advising the reader that the car was no longer there. Actually it would make a lot more sense if it were the other way around. Amtrak would have acquired the cars in 1971, and disposed of them in 1977, right when they started the "Heritage Fleet" Head End Power(HEP) conversions. Neither #8380 or #8381 show up on the Heritage Fleet roster. The cars were bought by the Hancock County Port Commission, and then for one reason or another MEC #16 is sold to ANP Pharmaceuticals and the others to the Waccamaw Coast Line as discussed. The parenthetic was not noting sale or transfer from ANP it was noting transitory ownership by the Commission prior to current disposition as listed. That would explain why it is still listed as being there (because it is!).

So to answer your question directly. It appears that Amtrak sold this car to the Hancock County Port Commission in 1977, when they sold or disposed of a lot of their "Heritage" rolling stock, and it was then resold to ANP Pharmaceuticals (@ 3600 25th Avenue, Gulfport, MS), this facility recently became, GCP Laboratories and apparently the rail car conveyed with the property. My guess is that it is being used as an employee breakroom or possibly for cold storage.

I thought it was significant that I could confirm that #8380/8381 had not gone through the Heritage rebuild program. Still no information on disposition of #8380 but it seems likely it would have been sold or disposed of by Amtrak in or about 1977.

8380 and 8381 were retired in November of 1977.
A pair of "new" diners 8380 and 8381 were obtained from Southern in 1979, and were rebuilt as part of the heritage program, and today are 8521 and 8558 respectively. I believe both are active.

(Above comes from Amtrak by the Numbers)

R30A wrote:8380 and 8381 were retired in November of 1977.
A pair of "new" diners 8380 and 8381 were obtained from Southern in 1979, and were rebuilt as part of the heritage program, and today are 8521 and 8558 respectively. I believe both are active.

(Above comes from Amtrak by the Numbers)

Thank you very much for the clarification.

R30A's post reminded me that I had not cross posted an update which I had provided in the "Surviving Maine Central Passenger Equipment" thread in the Boston & Maine/Maine Central forum. Obviously the historical importance of this car is far greater in terms of its service on the Maine Central than Amtrak, but nonetheless here it is.

gokeefe wrote:CONFIRMED- FOUND! MEC #16 Arundel, Hancock Port Commission, Gulfport, MS, Stored - Out of Service.

The following message was received from the Webmaster at icrr.net.

As far as I know, the car is still behind the pharmaceutical company and still belongs to the port commission who I believe own the building and spur.

While many might say "Confirmed" is a little strong to say without closeup pictures, I think this is as close as it gets. Further supporting information on the find is available in the previously referenced thread.

R30A wrote:8380 and 8381 were retired in November of 1977.
A pair of "new" diners 8380 and 8381 were obtained from Southern in 1979, and were rebuilt as part of the heritage program, and today are 8521 and 8558 respectively. I believe both are active.

In fact 8521 still shows visible signs of its Southern heritage.

So now that there are some new View Diners on the way, and a recently refurbished fleet of heritage diners, is there going to be a "bargain of the century" situation wherein private owners and Class 1 business train fleets get virtually new diners for nothing?

I wonder whether VIA will pick up any cars as well - for rebuild stock if nothing else. Their last experiment with heritage cars direct from Amtrak (the Northern Spirit sleepers) didn't work so well out of the box, from what I'm told.

Tadman wrote:So now that there are some new View Diners on the way, and a recently refurbished fleet of heritage diners, is there going to be a "bargain of the century" situation wherein private owners and Class 1 business train fleets get virtually new diners for nothing?

Sounds like the "bargain" of a car I got from my dad. $1.

Then $700 dollars in brakes and other work the next day before it was safe to drive.

Tadman wrote:So now that there are some new View Diners on the way, and a recently refurbished fleet of heritage diners, is there going to be a "bargain of the century" situation wherein private owners and Class 1 business train fleets get virtually new diners for nothing?

Think about it!
Via helped out Amtrak last fall with cars for the Adirondack.
I think Via will get first crack at those diners. They are quite short of them. Also got God forbid if the have and accident with the " Canadian" they would be up the creek with out a paddle!
I think they should at least give it some though and look at them if Amtrak wants to deal with them...