• Amtrak Heritage Diners Thread

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by CalZephyr
 
ngotwalt wrote:Diner 8551 is Silver Cafe, I rode it on Silver Star a couple months ago. It was cool riding a CZ dining car on the NEC going 110 MPH. When I got to Orlando I checked the number board where it says 8551 and you could see the words Silver Cafe barely if you squinted and the sunlight hit it just right, but when it hit it just right, there was no mistaking what it said.
Cheers,
Nick

8551 is Silver Diner. Pre-HEP, it was 8051, and originally CB&Q 194.

Silver Cafe was originally CB&Q 193, and was Amtrak 8051 Pre-HEP, and now 8510.

Last month, Silver Diner was involved in that freak mishap on CSX in Florida where it had its roof gashed. Hopefully not the end of line for ol' 194.
  by gokeefe
 
In another topic in the Boston & Maine/Maine Central forum (http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 77&t=75311) I asked a question in regards to the provenance of Amtrak Heritage Diners #8380 and #8381 as well as a couple of other remnant foodservice cars of the B&M and the MEC. There are two different sources that list these diners, one indicated origin as MEC the other indicates origin as B&M. I'm interested to find out which one of these sources is correct, and what the final/current disposition of these units is.

Source listing MEC provenance (via L&N):
Mr. James VanBokkelen, "Maine Central Railroad Passenger Equipment" Roster (partial), showing origin of ATK #8380, ATK #8381 as MEC via L&N.
http://faracresfarm.com/jbvb/rr/mecrr/mec_pass.html

Source listing B&M provenance (via L&N):
Post on Trainorders.com, dated June 12, 2003 by user "Pullman" mentioning author Mr. David Randall and his book From Zephyr to Amtrak as listing two 'COUNTER LOUNGE' cars as "2 cars 8380-8381 (L&N 2800-2801 - B&M 70-71)".
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,563923
  by jhdeasy
 
I don't have my reference material here at the office, but I recall reading some material about the cars a few years ago and recall their lineage was MEC - C&EI - L&N - Amtrak. While they were owned by MEC, they were used in a joint B&M and MEC service. Amtrak retired them in the 1970s so they did not receive HEP upgrades. I don't know what became of them after disposition by Amtrak.

Here is a photo of Amtrak 8381 in 1972.
http://www.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetai ... toID=15517
  by gokeefe
 
Mr. jhdeasy,

Mr. VanBokkelen's roster did mention C&EI prior to L&N. That was an omission on my part.

On the topic of disposition I don't have the impression that 'Heritage' cars that were never given HEP upgrades were scrapped wholesale by any means.

"Curioser and curioser"
  by jhdeasy
 
gokeefe wrote:Mr. jhdeasy,

Mr. VanBokkelen's roster did mention C&EI prior to L&N. That was an omission on my part.

On the topic of disposition I don't have the impression that 'Heritage' cars that were never given HEP upgrades were scrapped wholesale by any means.

"Curioser and curioser"
Since their retirement and sale by Amtrak, some of Amtrak's pre-HEP Heritage Fleet cars have been scrapped. I don't have a good feel for the percentage that have been scrapped. Others have been repaired/refurbished, and some have simply been stored by new owners. I can make some inquiries with fellow members of AAPRCO.
  by gokeefe
 
Mr. jhdeasy,

Thank You in advance for your efforts!

Does anyone know of a roster/website that has a list of the entire Heritage fleet that was absorbed by Amtrak (assuming most probably on A-day other than SOU)? Perhaps that would help.
  by jhdeasy
 
Unfortunately, I know of no such website or roster that provides a "complete" listing. For dome cars, I recommend: http://www.trainweb.org/web_lurker/WebLurkersDOMEmain/ as excellent reference material.

I would suggest the Amtrak Car Spotter series of books and some others, such as "Car Names Numbers and Consists", edited by Robert Wayner, published by Wayner Publications in New York City. They are out of print, but you should be able to find a copy on E-bay or at a railroadiana show.

I have some internal company roster documents, but they are not a May 1, 1971 listing. Both cars were on the roster in service as of 10/01/1976. They are not listed in the Amtrak Car and Locomotive Spotter (4th edition) with dat as of 4/01/1980.

Amtrak later re-used roster numbers 8380 and 8381 for dining cars acquired from Southern Railway.

Keep in mind that Amtrak acquired additional "used" equipment at times after May 1, 1971, prompted by events such as the 1974 petroleum shortage. The x-US Army troop ambulance cars and hospital kitchen cars and some Via baggage cars are an example of "used" car acquisitions by Amtrak after May 1, 1971.

Keep in mind that there are lightweight passenger cars which Amtrak did not acquire (original Autotrain Corporation, D&RGW, Rock Island, Georgia RR, some cars in "commuter" service, and cars retained by the pre-Amtrak operators) that exist today, some of which are in service. However, you might consider these cars outside the scope of your research efforts.
  by Amtk30
 
I may have found some additional info from Wayner Publication's Amtrak Car Spotter 3rd edition 1976. "Counter-lounge cars built by PS 1947 for Maine Central as restaurant-lounge cars." Amtrak 8380-L&N 2800-C&EI 603-MEC 15 "Merry Meeting." Amtrak 8381-L&N 2801-C&EI 604-MEC 16 "Arundel." I have a note by both entries listing they were included in car auctions held at various locations circa 11/1977. Another note listing both cars as Amtrak retired by 1978. Hope this helps! :-)

Amtk30
  by gokeefe
 
Amtk30,

What is your impression of the notation? Does this mean the cars didn't sell at auction or were the cars retired once sale and title transfer was complete?
  by JimBoylan
 
Amtrak also made later purchases from PennCentral, Southern Rwy., and Denver & Rio Grande Western. The D&RGW dinning car was removed from the rebuilding process due to frame weakness.
  by jhdeasy
 
Here is some information from one of my fellow private car owners and AAPRCO members:

ARUNDEL was acquired by Hancock County Port Commission in Bay St. Louis, Mississippi. The class III shortline that serves this customer is Port Bienville Railroad. Contacting them should confirm if the car is still on the property, or what became of it. I am not certain, but I think MERRY MEETING was eventually scrapped. Both of these cars had the problems (dis-similar metals and corrossion) of stainless steel fluting installed over mild steel side sheets and side sills.
  by John_Perkowski
 
Amtrak, in its start-up, surveyed virtually every piece of rolling stock available in the US. Bill Kratville, then of Auto-Liner, led one survey team out of Omaha. Another team ran on the East Coast. Several ex-Pullman Company mechanical men were part of the teams. There was a Trains article about the procurement of cars at the time.

IIRC 1/3 of the total US passenger fleet available on April 30, 1971 was eventually bought into Amtrak. As I recall, this represented about 1400 cars total. Robert Wayner is a darn good contemporary source. I have both his 1972 and 1973 editions of the Amtrak Car Spotter. I use them still.

As Amfleet, Superliner, and Horizon came onto the property, Amtrak have an economic reason, or a preservation reason, to retain cars. Folks like Mr Deasy have done us beyond yeoman service in retaining such PV as there are. Remember the economic condition of the US in the late 70s and early 80s: We had stagflation in the Carter years, which turned into a true recession in the initial Reagan years. Some of Amtrak's fleet (especially coming from the ATSF) actually was pre- WWII streamliner cars. Hopefully your car is extant, but I would not bet your 401K (or mine) against that hope.

Mr Deasy: You are saying this car probably had the PULLMAN Disease (Cor-Ten corrosion)?
  by jhdeasy
 
John_Perkowski wrote:Amtrak, in its start-up, surveyed virtually every piece of rolling stock available in the US. Bill Kratville, then of Auto-Liner, led one survey team out of Omaha. Another team ran on the East Coast. Several ex-Pullman Company mechanical men were part of the teams. There was a Trains article about the procurement of cars at the time.

IIRC 1/3 of the total US passenger fleet available on April 30, 1971 was eventually bought into Amtrak. As I recall, this represented about 1400 cars total.

[snip]

Mr Deasy: You are saying this car probably had the PULLMAN Disease (Cor-Ten corrosion)?
Yes, the design and construction of these two Pullman Standard built cars made them vulnerable to this disease. Some railroads were smart; during a shop period, they eventually removed the cosmetic stainless steel fluting from the sides of their Pullman lightweight cars and repaired/painted the mild steel side sheets formerly hidden by the fluting, or completely replaced them with stainless steel side sheets. I can recall hitting the cosmetic stainless steel side fluting of some Pullman Standard NYC and C&O coaches with a rubber mallet and seeing the little rusted pieces from corroded side sheets trickle their way down to the ground. Ditto on driving a hole in a side sill with a hammer and chisel.

The Autotrain Corporation, which started operations about a year or so before Amtrak, beat Amtrak to the acquisition of about 40 plus good dome cars. Timing was in their favor.
  by Amtk30
 
gokeefe wrote:Amtk30,

What is your impression of the notation? Does this mean the cars didn't sell at auction or were the cars retired once sale and title transfer was complete?
I could only speculate that both cars were retired from active Amtrak roster by 1977-78 as confirmed from Wayner's Amtrak Car Spotters 3rd ed 1976 (listed) but not 4th ed 1980, as well as Randall's Railway Passenger Car Annual Vol III 1976 (listed) but not Vol IV 1978-79.

I will defer the floor to those more knowledgeable about status of Amtrak's heritage equipment. Most interesting information about AutoLiner Corp and that PS Cor-Ten stuff.

Amtk30
  by gokeefe
 
A little further searching on Google reveals the following:

From the Railway Preservation News Website forums:
http://server.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic ... &view=next
Username: Tom Cornillie wrote:Hello all,

On this site, http://www.icrr.net/museums.htm, I came across the following listing:

Gulfport, MS - ANI Pharmaceuticals
Pullman Standard Diner - Lounge built 1947
Maine Central 16 - Arundel
Chicago & Eastern Illinois 604 - Merry Meeting
Louisville & Nashville 2801 - Dixie Journey
Amtrak 8381 - Dixie Journey
(sold to Hancock Port Commission in 1977)

Does anybody here have any information on how these cars were/are used and their current condition.

Many thanks,
Tom Cornillie
Username: johnacraft wrote:If that's the case, I think this car went to the collection that was operated on the Port Bienville Railroad (west of Bay St. Louis) in the 1980s. They had L&N, IC, and Southern cars, including at least two diners.

The equipment was moved to Meridian, MS and stored there, then some (most? all?) went to the line operating dinner trains at Myrtle Beach (name escapes me).

JAC
Username: Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:I do have the reference materials in front of me, and can confirm that the listing provided is a complete history of the same car, listed in this 1976 Amtrak roster as a "L.C. Lounge", part of two Maine Central diner-lounge cars (along with a C&O "Family Coach") that C&EI passed on to L&N.

Is JAC speculating that it's now on what is/was the Horry County operation in SC?
Username: Alan Maples wrote:Waccamaw Coast Line was sold to the Carolina Southern Railroad, which I believe has several passenger cars and operates excursions on a "special event" basis.

Incidentally, Carolina Southern was previously known as the Mid Atlantic Railroad, and is controlled by Ken Pippin through the old Baltimore & Annapolis Railroad, one of the more unusual recyclings of a defunct short line corporate shell.

Gray Tuttle, who previously owned the Waccamaw Coast Line, also runs the Clinton Terminal Railroad in Clinton, NC. I stopped by there some years ago and recall seeing some passenger equipment stored, but I don't remember any details.

Alan Maples
Apparently MEC #15 MERRYMEETING drops off the radar but MEC #16 ARUNDEL survived for quite some time. Any further information is appreciated.
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