Passengers stranded on MARC train for hours

I just got a hold of the CTEC report that details the incident. According to the timeline the train broke down at 6:22 with a non-recoverable MBC trip and at 6:30 MARC was informed and a rescue diesel was ordered from Washington. A technician was placed on MARC train 440 at 6:50 and dropped off at 6:57 and rescue diesel #63 arrived at 7:15 to couple to the stalled train. Coupling operations were complete and crews placed at both ends of the train by 7:40, but at 7:49 the train reported that it was having brake line air pressure problems and they would need to transfer passengers to train 442. By 8:41 all but 100 of the passengers were able to get on 442 and at 8:47 442 was on the move. Train 538 finally gets moving at 9:15 and arrives at NCR at 9:21 to discharge then return south to DC.

Given that the rescue diesel was ordered at 6:30 it's fairly clear that even tho it took 70 minutes to get that unit out and coupled up that was probably the best MARC/Amtrak could do with the available crews. Given today's budget situation there just isn't a lot of money to support a "hot failover" capacity. Coupling was complicated by the need to get foul time on the adjacent track #2 which by that point was clogged with rush hour trains in both directions. The obvious question is why didn't #63 take over HEP duties from the failed 4911 and at least restore A/C to the train cars and if it did perhaps the reports of being stuck for 2 hours in a hot train are exaggerated. The brake problems once the rescue locomotive was coupled were the real killer and caused a typical brakedown situation to morph into a disaster.

FYI the Amtrak CEO just sent out a company wide employee notice apologizing for the failure and calling for an increased commitment to customer service by all employees especially when it comes to communication and meeting passenger's needs in contingency situations.

Jersey_Mike wrote:

FYI the Amtrak CEO just sent out a company wide employee notice apologizing for the failure and calling for an increased commitment to customer service by all employees especially when it comes to communication and meeting passenger's needs in contingency situations.

Well that's a good first step.

To me they've got to get to the root cause of why these things fail in not-very-hot summer weather. Amtrak 148 NB today, which I took to avoid having to take a MARC...stalled for 25 minutes one mile or so north of the Union Tunnel in Baltimore. (MCB too, heard it on the conductor's radio) Lucky for us, a tech was on board and was able to fix it! We got moving again. Given Amtrak runs a # of NE Regionals with electric locos in a protect config or with a tech on board, maybe MARC ought to start doing that. It doesn't matter if I'm "not a railroader"...electric locos in various hot and or hot/humid parts of the world somehow manage. If there's a design flaw they need to work out a remediation approach with Bombardier. It's a glorified electrical substation on wheels. Although it does happen, substations failing due to heat is a rather uncommon occurrence. Compute the waste heat the bloody thing generates and make sure it gets moved away. People designing computer rooms have to do this all the time.

X-Press, you are misunderstanding my post. Im not saying the passengers be damned, but what Im trying to say thatthe railroad was already at a choke point with this incident, and a train to train transfer isnt the best scenario especially where this train was stopped, as the train was on a curve and the ballast is steeply sloped at this point on both sides of the track and for 800 passengers to step down off the train, step into the ballast and then step back up onto the train isnt always safe to do, especially when most of the passengers are dressed from work with dress shoes and high heels.If someone got hurt with this process, then people on here would be crying that they shouldve tried a different approach, and lets just forget what the Media would say. Also being that it was rush hour, you suggest to shut the railroad down to get this train to train transfer accomplished when thousands of passengers on other trains had places they had to go, whether it be work, school, a flight, doctors etc etc etc. You may not like my assestment about railroaders knowing more, but I beg your pardon, but we do and we should. Armchair railroaders dont have the experience or insight as to what it takes to run a train, rules, what to do in emergency situations etc etc. Its easy to come on this forum to criticize railroaders or the railroad themselves, when said persons dont work on the railroad although thats not to say that the armchair railroaders wouldnt have a clue, but they arent trained.Remember, being a railroader is a craft and a specialty and I love and cherish my job and Im proud to be a railroader and I'll be damned if I let buffs say otherwise. That is the point Im trying to make. As I have said in my previous post, Amtrak tried to resolve this problem and it didnt work for various reasons. I had brought a technician down which came from Baltimore. He was to assist the crew and the tech which came from DC. Another point in this situation is the HHP locomotive is really a thorn in Amtrak and MARC side. They have to much technology which likes to fail. When an HHP recieves a MCB(Main Circuit Breaker) lockout, the only way that this can be resolved is by a laptop and mostly in the shops. Most of the time with AEM7's and diesels, you can work around certain problems. Many times you will recieve an MCB lockout when catenary voltage drops which happens alot in DC especially during rush hour as the substation in DC is no longer operable.

From the official timeline of events Amtrak did everything properly including summoning a rescue diesel w/in 8 minutes of the train reporting the problem. The rescue train was used only after the rescue diesel couldn't get the trains brakes to release. The only anomaly is why MARC 63 couldn't provide HEP to the stalled train while the rescue train operation was carried out. Another option would have been to uncouple from 4911 (and maybe some additional cars) to isolate the brake problem.

Jersey_Mike wrote:From the official timeline of events Amtrak did everything properly including summoning a rescue diesel w/in 8 minutes of the train reporting the problem. The rescue train was used only after the rescue diesel couldn't get the trains brakes to release. The only anomaly is why MARC 63 couldn't provide HEP to the stalled train while the rescue train operation was carried out. Another option would have been to uncouple from 4911 (and maybe some additional cars) to isolate the brake problem.

Mike, these were my same questions but all we can do is speculate since I wasnt working the move and dont know what was involved.I can only speculate that there was more then what is being told

Budd,

I understand your point, I apologize if I mis-interpreted. I take a lot of pride in my profession, too, and certainly wouldn't want some know-it-all telling me what my company's doing wrong (even if it WAS wrong).

From my perspective there were really three problems, here,

- A breakdown, which sure seems to happen way too often with HHP-8's, and WAAAAAAY too often with MARC. I may not be "railroader" enough to diagnose why they are breaking down, and wag my finger at whoever's screwups caused or are causing this, but I am quite qualified to say it's unacceptable, based on my own experiences and local media coverage.

- An approximately two-hour delay in getting the passengers off. From the reports above, Amtrak seems to have taken reasonable steps, and they just didn't work. We'll see if the FRA agrees, or has any better ideas on that count. While deboarding the train on a super-elevated curve would not have been easy, and certainly wouldn't have qualified as "safe," you get to a point where it may be "lesser of two evils." I'll defer to the experts, but I'm still interested in what they'll have to say.

- What the crew did or did NOT do DURING the delay . . . this, in my mind, is the one that could potentially provoke the real outrage. Unfortunately, it's also the area we have the least official information on . . . just reports. When did they get the order to open all the doors? 15 minutes in? 1.5 hours in? Did they actually do it on all the cars? How hot did it actually get in the cars? Was it hot enough to justify removing some emergency windows before the passengers felt compelled to do so? And what of the report that a conductor(s) ordered all the doors closed in advance of the rescue train's arrival? Was it true? If true, was it really necessary? These aren't just internet rumors, mind you, these were in the paper yesterday morning. Michael Dresser covers transportation issues for the Baltimore Sun, and while not quite at the level Don Phillips was in his prime on rail, he's waaaaaaaay better than the average hack. He may not be a railroader, but he seems to know where to get their info.

When a train breaks down, often, a rescue loco isn't sent immediately as soon as the report comes in. If that was the case, nothing would move because there would be lite engines all over the place! Some faith has to be put in the crew in getting the train going again, and the mechanical forces giving step by step instructions over the radio/telephone. Literally, like 95 percent of the time, the train crew gets the train rolling again, and maybe there is a slight delay, but they are moving, which is the most important thing.

when it looks like the crew isn't going to be able to get the train moving on their own, the rescue crew is actually sent out (often times, they are told to saddle up and stand by as soon as the report comes in) to give a tow. It takes some time to get to the scene because there is often a lot of traffic with other trains ahead because of the broken down train (just like on the freeway, when there is a big accident, except the loco can't use the shoulder and fly around everyone...). So everything takes time. When its 90 plus degrees out, that time seems a lot longer because it does get hot. Opening doors and windows is a good idea to keep air circulating, but does have its own risks, with allowing people to jump of the train on their own and wandering the ROW, which is why it is an absolute last resort.

My GUESS as to why the rescue loco didn't provide HEP for the train is that it was probably broken. MOST times (not all of course) there is a reason why a loco isn't in revenue service and being used as a "protect" loco - because it has some kind of issue that keeps rearing its ugly head, usually with HEP. Most times a train is just towed to the nearest station or service place as quick as possible, and HEP is NOT connected. The goal is just to get the stupid thing out of the way ASAP! Now it does look like this situation could/should have been different.....

As for the way Amtrak handled things, IMO of course, things could have been done better, thats the situation with pretty much anything, however, I don't think much - I think they probably did the best that they could, and sometimes, $#it does happen - it goes from bad to worse to even worse.

BUT, Amtrak has handled these situations badly in the past, but honestly i dont' think they could have done much more in this situation....sometimes the stars alight JUUUUST the right way for things to just not work out, and that seems to be what happened

As for the crew response, I have found that even if the crew did everything 110 percent correct and by the books, some folks will just not notice and insist that no annoucements were made, or the crew disappeared, or were rude, it doesn't matter. And of course, this is the greatest variable as well. the RR can have all the training and procedures and rules, but its up the crew actually follow it. But it will turn into a "he said she said" kinda thing with various reports. Some passengers just don't have realistic expectations as to what they THINK should have happened, and will complain and blow things out of proportion. There might be a grain of truth to it, but gets blown sky high.....I know, ive been on the receiving end in this kind of situation in a break down several times.....

I have noticed that in general across all industry and government there can be a general paralysis that sets during emergency situations. First of all those in charge have to deal with the emergency itself which can result in target fixation. Secondly those on site are usually not management grade and are not accustomed to or not empowered to make various kinds of decisions. While proper supervision may be in some appropriate command center, those on site are focused on the problem at hand and may not notice or want to bother management with "side issues" such as passenger comfort. There can also be somewhat of an optimism bias at work where people assume that the problem will be fixed within some reasonable time horizon and thus feel it is unnecessary to begin contingency actions because they won't matter when the situation is quickly resolved (think gulf oil spill).

Jersey_Mike wrote:I have noticed that in general across all industry and government there can be a general paralysis that sets during emergency situations. First of all those in charge have to deal with the emergency itself which can result in target fixation. Secondly those on site are usually not management grade and are not accustomed to or not empowered to make various kinds of decisions. While proper supervision may be in some appropriate command center, those on site are focused on the problem at hand and may not notice or want to bother management with "side issues" such as passenger comfort. There can also be somewhat of an optimism bias at work where people assume that the problem will be fixed within some reasonable time horizon and thus feel it is unnecessary to begin contingency actions because they won't matter when the situation is quickly resolved (think gulf oil spill).

Well there is a balancing act that needs to be done by a good crew....passenger comfort and awareness vs. working to trying to get the train moving.

For example, a few months ago, my loco crapped out, and it was pushing...after trying a few things from the cab car, I had to go back and reset the loco. The crew was making good annoucements and most passengers were content in their new "adventure" of sitting in the darkness of a train at 10pm....however, for whatever reason, after resetting the loco, and making my way back to the front, it seemed like every other passenger was stopping me and asking questions. The crew was making annoucements and informing them what was going on, as I heard them through the same PA system that the passengers would hear, so its not like they didn't know what was up (or didn't listen....). I guess they were curiuos because they saw "progress" in the fact htat the lights came back on.

What do I do? Be rude to the passengers, and brush off their questions, while im trying to get to the front of the train to see if we can move, or take my time and answer 101 questions, and delay the train even further?

Guess what, I was "rude" to the passengers and was giving short answers or pretending like I didn't hear them at all and was in "focused" mode, meaning walking through not making any eyecontact with anyone - haha -

Some passengers might have thought I was being rude, but I don't care, we had to see if i could get the train moving again, or if not, try something else. And stopping and answering 20 questions as to what i did and what happened and my favorite of, "when are we gonna be moving?" with my answer being "when I can get to the front of the train..........." Usually a passenger is standing and blocks your path when they ask that one.

Often times a crew is damned if they do damned if they don't...people will complain about too many annoucements, ("they should be working to fix the problem instead of telling us the same thing over and over..") or too few annoucements ("no one told us ANYTHING!") - of course what really happened is soemwhere in between.............

So Jtgshu just as a suggestion looking towards the next time you have that situation - (Been a field engineer and customer service and management for over 40 years) - as you walk through be pleasant, don't avoid eye contact and defer all questions by saying something like " Sorry I've got to get back up to the motor so we can quit blocking the railroad and get moving and/or Can you please ask the conductor?" - that way you can keep the Conductor and assorted A/Cs and Trainmen gainfully employed and avoid being classified as rude and a jerk by some self important loser from NYC .....

Jtgshu wrote:Well there is a balancing act that needs to be done by a good crew....passenger comfort and awareness vs. working to trying to get the train moving.

For example, a few months ago, my loco crapped out, and it was pushing...after trying a few things from the cab car, I had to go back and reset the loco. The crew was making good annoucements and most passengers were content in their new "adventure" of sitting in the darkness of a train at 10pm....however, for whatever reason, after resetting the loco, and making my way back to the front, it seemed like every other passenger was stopping me and asking questions. The crew was making annoucements and informing them what was going on, as I heard them through the same PA system that the passengers would hear, so its not like they didn't know what was up (or didn't listen....). I guess they were curiuos because they saw "progress" in the fact htat the lights came back on.

What do I do? Be rude to the passengers, and brush off their questions, while im trying to get to the front of the train to see if we can move, or take my time and answer 101 questions, and delay the train even further?

Guess what, I was "rude" to the passengers and was giving short answers or pretending like I didn't hear them at all and was in "focused" mode, meaning walking through not making any eyecontact with anyone - haha -

Some passengers might have thought I was being rude, but I don't care, we had to see if i could get the train moving again, or if not, try something else. And stopping and answering 20 questions as to what i did and what happened and my favorite of, "when are we gonna be moving?" with my answer being "when I can get to the front of the train..........." Usually a passenger is standing and blocks your path when they ask that one.

Often times a crew is damned if they do damned if they don't...people will complain about too many annoucements, ("they should be working to fix the problem instead of telling us the same thing over and over..") or too few annoucements ("no one told us ANYTHING!") - of course what really happened is soemwhere in between.............

You already know what questions are going to be asked, how about using the train's pagiing system and let everyone know the answers? You then may not have to answer the same questions over and over again while proceeding through every car.

Getting pages that don't include what you're doing is USELESS! That's why no one listens to them. You may be surprised by a different result if you include some USEFUL information in the pages.

crew annoucements: "the engineer is going back to the locomotive to try to fix the problem"

then when the lights come on......

crew annoucements: "It looks like the engineer might have made some progress, hopefully the problem is fixed"

That should be good enough....sit back and keep your fingers crossed

Some people want to know EXACTLY what was done, and quite frankly its none of their business and I don't have time to give them a step by step procedure on how to reset an ALP44....."well what was wrong?, did you fix it? Is it going to break down again? What did you do? why did it break in the first place?"

THATS what im talking about - some folks are never happy with whatever is told to them and like I said, even if the crew goes above and beyond in a situation like this, someone is not going to be happy and is going to be the first to run over to a newspaper or TV reporter and blow things out of proportion

and like i said in the second paragraph in my above post...

The crew was making good annoucements and most passengers were content in their new "adventure" of sitting in the darkness of a train at 10pm....

Now, as a disclaimer, im not saying the crew did or didn't do a good job in this instance, i wasn't there, but lots of times what actually happened and what is reported are two totally different things, no matter how good the reporter may or may not be.

x-press wrote: - A breakdown, which sure seems to happen way too often with HHP-8's, and WAAAAAAY too often with MARC. I may not be "railroader" enough to diagnose why they are breaking down, and wag my finger at whoever's screwups caused or are causing this, but I am quite qualified to say it's unacceptable, based on my own experiences and local media coverage.

In a recent equipment acquisition strategy document, Amtrak stated that it wants 60 new electric locomotives to replace not only the AEM-7's, but also the HHP-8's due to their poor reliability!

I just saw NB 530 (I think) leaving with a GP39 and a MP36 pulling. Why not 2 MP36s?

update: the 534 is being pulled by 2 MP36. for some reason we crawled along at 15 mph or so after leaving Union Station, therefore we didn't even reach New Carrollton until 5:42, a time when the train should be able to get to BWI. Not very encouraging. I guess marc is going to run diesels all summer, guaranteeing those north of Baltimore of being at least 15 minutes late.

The -36's are running together with the 39's when they're still undergoing testing.