• Pan Am Southern / Patriot Corridor Discussion

  • Pan Am Southern (webssite: https://panamsouthern.com ) is jointly-owned by CSX and Norfolk Southern, but operated by Genesee & Wyoming subsidiary Pittsburg & Shawmut dba Berkshire and Eastern,
Pan Am Southern (webssite: https://panamsouthern.com ) is jointly-owned by CSX and Norfolk Southern, but operated by Genesee & Wyoming subsidiary Pittsburg & Shawmut dba Berkshire and Eastern,

Moderator: MEC407

  by newpylong
 
CN9634 wrote:Mechanicville competes with traffic for Springfield so I'd count it
Then let's add Selkirk, it competes with XO for racks. What are the symbols? Let's list them all out for comparison. That will give us a clear view of Capital Region and New England destined intermodal from the 2 class Is. I will happily retract my statements if it can be proven CSX does in fact not have the Lions share of traffic into this region.
Last edited by newpylong on Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:12 am, edited 5 times in total.
  by pnolette
 
Looked up the current CSX intermodel trains on the B&A and this is what I found..

Eastbound
Q012-Daily
Q014-Daily
Q020-Daily
Q022-Daily
Q024- Tue-Sat

Westbound
Q017-Daily
Q019-Tue-Sat
Q119-Daily

Looks unbalanced with more eastbounds than westbounds..
  by roberttosh
 
I would say CSX has at least twice as much intermodal (and autos for that matter) business as PAS in New England. CSX runs 4-5 daily intermodal/rack trains vs PAS' 2, not to mention the fact that CSX double stacks while PAS only single stacks. The one area where I do think NS/PAS could eventually get the upper hand is on the North-South traffic where CSX will have a real tough time getting DS clearances.
  by roberttosh
 
As an aside, Hunt is no longer locked up by NS as CSX now handles substantial volumes into New England.
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
When did NS ever look at the PAS partnership and say to itself "We're going to build a superior lane that beats the snot out of CSX on the B&A"?

Never.

That wasn't their value proposition for buying into New England. Anyone with two eyes can compare the routes side-by-side and instantly rank the dominant #1 and the order-of-magnitude lesser #2. NS brass generally-speaking can read an eyechart with competence, after all. They invested--and are sticking with the plan in Year 8 of the partnership--because they saw plenty of profit motive for a more competitive #2 lane, and all the strategic considerations that opened up pan-system. Not a most competitive or dominant lane that left CSX in the dust...just the profit motive of a pretty-darn-good #2 with growth prospects, ability to exert influence they never had before on other secondary carriers in this part of the country, and to open up a new front where CSX would feel tangible competitive pressure they never had to feel before.

I don't know why this fallacy persists that it was an all-or-nothing moonshot on their part where nothing short of being crowned King of New England would suffice. That's impossible, and the rational actors in Norfolk clearly didn't buy into that impossibility. They saw something else with handsome payoff in developing a #2 IM lane. That's the framework for framing the bean-counts in this discussion, not "CSX hauls X stacks per day; NS is only going to haul X-Y stacks. GAME OVER!" Those are answers to questions no one with real money riding on PAS is even asking. The only questions worth answering are "What is NS's dollars-and-sense value proposition in developing a #2 New England IM lane? And how are they going/not-going to execute on that?" The Ponies' motivation is different and more nuanced than a straight-up daily cube-counting contest with the B&A.
  by newpylong
 
I don't recall anyone ever stating NS involvement with Pan Am revolves around taking over all of New England or nothing. I certainly never said that. All I said is NS is going to have an uphill fight to make major inroads into CSX traffic due to their inferior route into New England. I stand by that statement 2 pages of discussion later.

Of course NS got involved with Pan Am to test the waters and incubate traffic at a low cost. As was pointed out to me transit time is not everything and that makes sense. With established patterns and service they have been able to marginally grow their traffic. Maybe that's all they want.
  by Backshophoss
 
Believe some of the major trucking fleets went to NS asking them to reach into the New England Market,
likely due to CSX's "take it or leave it, we're the only game avaible" customer service,Guilford/PAR was
considered a unreliable option for intermodal moves.
The Driver HOS changes and the lack of drivers is forcing more trailers/53" containers on the rail.
  by bostontrainguy
 
Isn't it basically true that CSX has the better route from Buffalo to Albany and NS has the better route from Albany to the Boston area? If both routes were in best condition that would maybe make things fairly equal. Add to that that NS/PAR can offer service through to Maine and Eastern Canada while CSX pretty much dead ends in Worcester now.
H
With the future plans for double-stacking on the B&M and rebuilding the Portageville bridge in New York State, the NS route certainly has potential.
  by CN9634
 
Disclaimer: This post will be long.

My point is not that CSX doesn't have the bulk of intermodal traffic, because they do, in and out of New England, but it is rather that NS isn't competitive. That is simply untrue. However, several factors in the past few years have changed the traffic advantage in CSX's favor, namely their opening of the double stack route. NS will follow suit, mostly because they understand what they need to be successful. But at the same time, we have seen a shift in traffic over the past few years from NS to CSX. This has namely been with JB Hunt playing the game and going either railroad. JB Hunt of course is so large that they can do this on a system basis, as in reality their shift to using CSX is to utilize other capacity that has outpaced NS as a whole. However, what you are seeing in New England is unprecedented, as you have a large shift from NS to CSX. This is largely attributed to service issues back in Feb of 2015... where the line had to be embargo'd a few times while they cleared snow. Fact of the matter is, in shippers mind that still is recent memory and JB Hunt has routed some stuff via CSX to Chicago, which is the NS' primary lane into New England, due to it.

In time you'll likely see that come back and I think you have with trains once again getting longer. Of course, they still aren't like what it had been a few years ago with a full intermodal train and a mixed auto/intermodal in Ayer each day. Intermodal as a whole year-over-year is down, with NS seeing drops of around 10%, but it has been forecasted to see a strong second half of 2016 with intermodal being only one of the sectors to continue growth. That is because the primary target of intermodal isn't competitors rail lines, but highway to rail conversions. That will continue to be the focus for some time to come as fuel prices start to increase, and shippers get more innovate folks who are willing to try intermodal. Also remember, a lot of people jumped onto intermodal 15-20 years ago and had bad experiences... boxes getting lost or stranded for days. The physical intermodal movement was lightyears ahead of the technology, and only now are you seeing track and trace starting to catch up with the ability to track individual equipment (boxes now have RFID, AEI tags like rail cars and also some have home-grown tracking technology with GPS in them).

I think it's unfair to say NS made a marginal investment to get into New England, I think they had to put up a lot. At least $200M to get the PAS line, plus the investments that came afterwards in expansions, equipment and other resources. That is only for a small controlling portion on a line that is very important to them. Let's also count the D&H south line purchase in that and put their intermodal dream more in the $400M range for New York and New England. Mechanicville certainly serves parts of Western Mass not just the capital district. In reality, a daycab can go no further than 150 miles from the terminal but regional drivers can go up to 300 (and they will). You have to remember that CSX uses Syracuse as their primary upstate New York intermodal terminal, which is also located on their direct line to Chicago. That pales in comparison to the footprint NS has in their similar fortress in Harrisburg only a couple hundred miles away, which has at least 3 facilities all in the area. Allentown, Taylor, and Mechanicville all cover the remaining territory up into New York and Western Mass.

That is to say, just because you don't see 20 intermodal jobs a day out of the Capital area across to Buffalo doesn't mean the traffic isn't moving over NS, it simply says that the traffic enters through a different NS terminal by truck (Up to 150 miles practically) and goes via the Harrisburg/Pittsburg line. I can tell you first hand that the Taylor yard in Scranton is in a huge blind spot for CSX, which must bring boxes in from Kearny or Syracuse to compete in that market (barely). At the end of the day, they have no lines that close and they can't turn boxes as fast as Hunt or Hub on that terminal which is close to the likes of P&G at Tunk and Walmart at Tannersville, ect (Pittston, Carbondale and others in the area have large RDCs too). For intermodal dray carriers to make their buck, they have to keep drays per driver high, and that is done in short moves. Intermodal drivers can spend half their day waiting on paperwork, drop & hooks, finding empties, and a rash of other things. Due to this, they'd prefer to stay as close to their terminal as possible (within 50 miles is ideal).

The line into New England on PAS, as cumbersome as it may be, is only as strong as the NS system as a whole. When boxes hit Chicago, they need to be mounted and ready for a driver. Also, remember a lot of boxes are crosstowned to other ramps instead of steel wheeled. The steel wheel lanes fine themselves populated by the likes of UPS, the giant in the room. With CSX having the lock down on UPS traffic in Worcester, it certainly gives them a service advantage. You never know, you could see UPS change sides or hedge in the future with improved service on PAS, but that's about the only service that is dependent on hours not days (I think UPS has a ridiculous requirement for on time service by the RRs but pay the most and has top priority). That's important to remember too, the railroad's customers are the dray carriers, not the end user. However, they like to support the success of one another, but often times you see the railroad being the one who mis-handles and damages boxes, or losses paperwork ect (I know some terminal managers who would outright claim otherwise but I disagree).

As I mentioned back a few paragraphs, technology finally caught up. Ingates are faster and terminal dwell time is way down. Now drivers can use smartphone apps to report issues or find paperwork. Before, a driver might sit at a customer for 3 or 4 hours while waiting for office people to find a bill of lading. Now you can access that easily and get a digital copy right to the customer. As a driver, that makes you more product, especially when the paperwork isn't on the box like it should be. Shippers are also getting better at loading containers, which have to be optimized at a slightly smaller weight than traditional van truck. Because the tare weight of the box is heavier than a van, loads should be less than about 43,500lbs. Once again however, this took a while for shippers to catch on, and as such, intermodal carriers spent a lot of time re-working loads, which can get lost in a secured lot or relay yard for days while everyone sorts out the details. You'd be surprised how much of this can get lost. The other flip of the coin for everyone involved is who takes on the burden of owning chassis. Dray carriers didn't want it at first, and eventually you had railroads step up and own chassis fleets. This is starting to change now with dray carriers managing their own chassis which gives them greater control over the repairs and effective use of the equipment, also they don't have to pay per day for chassis to railroads.

This whole long rambly post is I guess to say that there is more than meets the eye to intermodal, it isn't just the railroads driving it, but also the draycarriers and the shippers. In terms of surface transportation, intermodal is fair new (intermodal only 30 years old, trucks about 100, railroads 200 and boats 1000+) so you still have some people in charge of supply chains that think in terms of truck or rail car. But intermodal, and more specifically domestic (I've been talking about domestic the whole time, international is a whole different model) has a long period of growth ahead of it. Look for continued advancements in technology, consolidation in the trucking sector (ala XPO, bring all the modes together or LTL, Van and Intermodal) and capacity expansion on the railroads. Once again, the intermodal guys can only grow as fast as the rail capacity, and right now CSX is beating them out. It takes about 60 loads per intermodal train (each way mind you) to make money, so consider that when you see the trains coming in. All those single stacked boxes present a capacity loss of 1 box, a real challenge when you have the tunnel a few miles long. Even still, they are still making money and they will fill out the train with density once they open up the capacity, they just need Fink & the boys to play ball (or get out of the way).
  by roberttosh
 
PAS' route is flatter than than the B&A but even if it was in tip top shape I don't think it would be much quicker to Ayer than to Worcester from the Albany area. NS is basically single track from Cleveland to Ayer with more miles vs CSX from Cleveland to Worcester which is mostly double track, so any advantage NS would ever have in New England would be more than made up for by CSX out West. NS can no doubt compete with CSX but at the end of the day I think it's clear CSX is always going to have the better route and service; at least E-W.
  by SemperFidelis
 
Pittston is HUGE for distribution centers, but I'd be hard pressed to find one in Carbondale... The Amazon (former diapers.com), Walmart, and Shoprite warehouses around Mount Pocono are all examples of missed opportunity for direct rail but great opportunity for intermodal.

Abother HUGE blindspot for CSX service with simply tons of DCs and SCs is Hazleton all the way south to bethlehem/Allentown/Breinigsville. NS (and now RBMN) have that nailed down.

Shame CSX gave up on the Bethlehem Branch. it would at least get them close to the latter of those locations.
  by CN9634
 
CSX 's dray carriers regularly frequent Hazleton from Chambersburg, Philly and occasionally Kearny. Its not a pretty dray but it happens everyday. You gotta give up traditional models of rail and and think in terms of hub and spoke intermodalism. Terminals don't need to be next door but it certainly does help. They dray can make the largest cost difference but also the service from terminals to other parts of the system. Hazleton amazon for example takes a lot because CSX has a strong north south and east west train in the New Jersey market. The crescent corridor is NS's way of fighting the A Line but they are still a ways away from full fruition. Same with the Allentown area, tons of CSX freight coming out of Kearny and Philly....
  by MEC407
 
Photo by Gary Knapp:

https://neverhomeboy.smugmug.com/Pan-Am ... -rWjVQ3P/A" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
  by CPF363
 
Imagine this: what would have significantly changed the entire Boston & Maine would have been the addition of the West Shore Railroad to Buffalo. Instead of the line ending at Rotterdam, and solely connecting to the New York Central, a route to Buffalo would have provided the B&M with competitive connections with the N&W, B&O, PRR and both Canadian Railroads. B&M would have not really needed the New York Central at all, just interchanging small amount of traffic with them with most of their traffic forwarded to the western systems in Buffalo and south bound traffic using the D&H. If this were true, the entire dynamic of the B&M would be different today with much more higher priority traffic on it providing competition to today's B&A.
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